Ever seen a ghost?

[shootnfish]

Don't read it then.

[Paddy Galore!]

blunderbuss, you scoff because you are unenlightened

[cerberus]

It always surprises me how many seemingly intelligent adults believe in such tosh.

yes,this ones right up there with the moon landings tosh

[victorismyhero]

It always surprises me how many seemingly intelligent adults believe in such tosh.

However, as a matter of philosophy, you CANNOT PROVE the non-existance of something, simply because you cannot "look in every place, nor know everything".

whilst there is a large body of admittedly subjective and wholy observational evidence for many phenomena (not just ghosts) some of which is from very reliable observers, there is no evidence AT ALL, even scientific, that would support the statement that "ghosts do NOT exist". what there is is a body of evidence which can only say, "given the state of knowledege AT THIS MOMENT, it seems unlikely that such phenomena are what they are claimed to be." As knowledge advances, the confidence in that statement increases or decreases according to the hard scientific evidence available.

 

I know what I personally have seen, I know the limits of my observational abilities and the tricks that they can play on me,

 

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

- Hamlet (1.5.166-7), Hamlet to Horatio

[Blunderbuss]

However, as a matter of philosophy, you CANNOT PROVE the non-existance of something, simply because you cannot "look in every place, nor know everything".

whilst there is a large body of admittedly subjective and wholy observational evidence for many phenomena (not just ghosts) some of which is from very reliable observers, there is no evidence AT ALL, even scientific, that would support the statement that "ghosts do NOT exist". what there is is a body of evidence which can only say, "given the state of knowledege AT THIS MOMENT, it seems unlikely that such phenomena are what they are claimed to be." As knowledge advances, the confidence in that statement increases or decreases according to the hard scientific evidence available.

 

I know what I personally have seen, I know the limits of my observational abilities and the tricks that they can play on me,

 

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,[/size]Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. [/size]- Hamlet (1.5.166-7), Hamlet to Horatio

True. I cannot disprove the existence of ghosts. If I fervently believed there is a giant invisible gorilla made of Turkish delight hovering above your head who only I can see, you couldn't disprove its existence. A good argument for others too believe in it too?

[kdubya]

True. I cannot disprove the existence of ghosts. If I fervently believed there is a giant invisible gorilla made of Turkish delight hovering above your head who only I can see, you couldn't disprove its existence. A good argument for others too believe in it too?

you knock about with this guy? Samuel Birley Rowbotham he thought he was right as well, like they say no one person knows everything, you would do well to recognise that fact.

 

KW

[Munzy]

A few years back a friend and I were walking along the old walls of Southampton after playing snooker. You probably won't know but the old walls are basically elevated ruined stone walkways around little bits of the city reached by steps at various points.

 

Anyway, the sun was starting to set and up the stairs we went approximately 10 meters behind an old man in a black suit. As we wound around the stairs and onto the walls he would disappear and reappear at points as we rounded pillars, nothing strange, just purely line of sight being broken. Anyway, we followed him for 70 meters or so all along this single path on the top of the old flint wall keeping a steady distance. As he turned corners we'd lose sight of him, then as we turned the same corner he would be there... you get the picture.

 

My friend and I were chatting away as we walked in single file, me in front. The old man in the suit rounded the final corner 10 meters in front of us and a few seconds later we rounded the same corner to head down the stairs and off the wall. I got two or three paces around the corner and froze. My mate walked straight into the back of me. It took me a few seconds to compute what was happening... I was staring at a 7 foot iron gate... closed... padlocked... no sign of the old man we had been following.

 

After the obvious, "did you see him?", "we were following him yeah?", "old man in a dark suit?", exchange we both went white and I started involuntarily shaking. With the sun setting in front of us on the old ruined walls of the city my mind was struggling to come to terms with the impossible... we had been following a ghost. My whole world and belief system had imploded, I was in real shock, in the space of a few seconds my understanding of reality had changed.

 

Half a minute later and feeling pretty shaken-up we turned to walk back down the path and off the wall from the stairs we had climbed earlier. Out of the corner of my eye I saw the old man below us on the street... walking towards a Southampton City Council van. From this side-on view I could see him swinging his keys presumably having just locked the gate and descended the stairs not realising we were behind him. I took a deep breath and suddenly all sense of reality had been restored!

 

It stuck with me this moment though! I don't believe in ghosts but for thirty seconds that evening I did and had the security guy walked the other way after leaving the wall I still would believe in them today.

 

It is this experience that forces me to see that every paranormal experience has a logical and sensible explanation; perhaps it's just that the explanation doesn't present itself to everyone that witnesses something "paranormal".

[FalconFN]

However, as a matter of philosophy, you CANNOT PROVE the non-existance of something, simply because you cannot "look in every place, nor know everything".

whilst there is a large body of admittedly subjective and wholy observational evidence for many phenomena (not just ghosts) some of which is from very reliable observers, there is no evidence AT ALL, even scientific, that would support the statement that "ghosts do NOT exist". what there is is a body of evidence which can only say, "given the state of knowledege AT THIS MOMENT, it seems unlikely that such phenomena are what they are claimed to be." As knowledge advances, the confidence in that statement increases or decreases according to the hard scientific evidence available.

 

I know what I personally have seen, I know the limits of my observational abilities and the tricks that they can play on me,

 

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

- Hamlet (1.5.166-7), Hamlet to Horatio

That single statement should be more than enough to convince you that what people see is not reality. Speak to any psychologist or neurologist and they will tell you that you cannot trust your senses as much as you think, we are hard-wired to see patterns, especially faces, in random objects and we are highly susceptible to suggestion.

 

You are right in saying you can't disprove ghosts, gods or multiple-universes but nobody requires proof that something isn't there, they require proof of something actually being there.

[Blunderbuss]

Kdubya, thanks for the melodramatic warning. I don't know your mate and I absolutely do not know everything, nor have ever claimed to. I WILL believe in ghosts, bogeymen and the tooth fairy if and when I see convincing evidence of their existence. Until then ill maintain a healthy scepticism thank you very much. Even in the face of theatrical dire warnings from blokes on t'interweb

Edited December 4, 2013 by Blunderbuss

[foosa]

Out after foxes one night I did see the ghost of the lesser spotted big cat of Pembroke!

[team tractor]

My dad has seen my sister many years ago which makes me upset as I want to see her.

I chased a lad at our old unit and he ran passed our doors where my dad was stood. He never did see him but the drive way was only 5 yards wide.

 

It's stayed with me for 20 years

[victorismyhero]

True. I cannot disprove the existence of ghosts. If I fervently believed there is a giant invisible gorilla made of Turkish delight hovering above your head who only I can see, you couldn't disprove its existence. A good argument for others too believe in it too?

However, If YOU were the only person that could or rathere beleived in said gorilla, That would be such weak evidence of its existance (no matter HOW real it was to you ) and as such I would regard the chances of this being the case as so small as to be ALMOST zero and thus of no concern, on the other hand if 1000 people, who had never met and could not concievably have colluded in a hoax, each independantly made the same observation, I would be forced to lend it some credence, since despite being highly unlikely there begins to be a mass of evidence which suggests the facts are so. I would perforce be obliged to investigate further in case its apparent immunity to gravity failed..

 

My point was simply a philosophical one....you CAN...reasonably...prove the existance of something, though how much of what we call "reality" is actually real and how much is "the common concensus of multiple minds" is another (never ending) debate. HOWEVER you cannot, period, prove the non-existence of anything, all you can do is prove that the chance of it existing is vanishingly small, and even THAT can prove difficult.

 

The so called "scientific method" where something has to, as one of the conditions of acceptance, be repeatable on demand, is beginning to fall apart in the face of quantum physics, believe me...the "hairy fringes of physics" are REALLY hairy, with particles that can be in 2 places at once and yet are actually in neither place in "REAL" terms. Where things are only "statistically" there...or not.....depending...

 

we tend to rely on things that are "real" or solid and can be seen clearly, handled etc...but most of these things are composed of those same particles, which are neither "here" nor "there" but are statistically "everywhere"....sometimes....or not.....

 

So whilst things of a "spiritual matter" are emotive and open to many different interpretations, I would not dismiss anyones experiences with a curt "tosh" simply because there is a large body of (subjective) evidence, and as yet no understanding except that SOME of these experiences can, sometimes, be traced to external influences (such as the presence of infra sound). This however is not ALWAYS the case, and we should be wary of saying that because SOME things have a definable and rational explanation ALL similar things must also.

[Munzy]

Victorismyhero... Spot-on mate!

 

I started reading about quantum mechanics and an experiment with a dead cat in a box and it was brain melting. After trying to understand it and failing I decided to just accept the possibilities and feel even more comfortable when I had experienced them first hand.

 

Just in case anyone is interested...

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat

Edited December 4, 2013 by Munzy

[victorismyhero]

That single statement should be more than enough to convince you that what people see is not reality. Speak to any psychologist or neurologist and they will tell you that you cannot trust your senses as much as you think, we are hard-wired to see patterns, especially faces, in random objects and we are highly susceptible to suggestion.

 

You are right in saying you can't disprove ghosts, gods or multiple-universes but nobody requires proof that something isn't there, they require proof of something actually being there.

That is not strictly accurate,research into a large number of unsolved mathematical theories is based upon the premise that the ONLY way to prove the theory consistently correct and thus universally applicable, is to PROVE that there are NO exceptions to it...hence why they are still theories and not "proofs"

 

It is this that bedevils quantum theory....proof that the exception does not exist.

[victorismyhero]

Even given the "realist's" view that something either is or is not, leads to a similar conclusion

 

let us assume that in the universe, things either can or cannot occur (be it a physical effect or a spiritual effect)

given that the laws of the universe (the universal constants and all the associated mathematical "rules") that govern the very existence of everything are fixed and immutable (else the universe would be an even more perculiar place than it is.)

It is fairly obvious that the occurence of a given phenomena is either permitted or forbidden, It cannot be "fuzzy" and subject to whim

therefore, if the existence of whatever is NOT forbidden in some way (ie it contravenes the "rules") then it is MANDATORY... i.e it MUST occur.

The frequency with which something thus occurs may well be so low as to be negligible (perhaps it only occurs once in the whole of time???) but non the less it is going to happen, or has already happened.

[victorismyhero]

Victorismyhero... Spot-on mate!

 

I started reading about quantum mechanics and an experiment with a dead cat in a box and it was brain melting. After trying to understand it and failing I decided to just accept the possibilities and feel even more comfortable when I had experienced them first hand.

 

Just in case anyone is interested...

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat

Yup Quantum physics has that effect...

 

on a lighter note we have a quantum cat....look out the back window, its there sat on the lawn

 

look out the front window and its there sat by the gate

 

go out to take it to the vet.....Its nowhere in sight......

[Blunderbuss]

OK, ’tosh' was a bit insulting to those who genuinely believe they have experienced paranormal stuff. I meant no offense and don't doubt that intelligent people genuinely believe they have experienced these things. Personally, I believe FalconFNs post no 33 explains why people have such experiences.

 

The argument that if lots of people believe in something, then the balance of evidence becomes weighted in its favour doesn't wash. At various points in history thousands if not millions of people have believed in dragons, mermaids, unicorns, fairies, a man in the moon and a flat earth. I suspect some still do.

 

Your philosophical question about what does 'real' mean is interesting, but perhaps a bit deep and off topic. I'm no philosopher, but I'm not a total sceptic either. I am prepared to consider that things I have not seen or experienced myself might exist, if I see credible, convincing evidence. I have yet to see anything which comes close to that for ghosts, so for the time being they are in the same category as leprechauns and minataurs AFAIK. I stand to be corrected though, on all of the above.

[victorismyhero]

OK, ’tosh' was a bit insulting to those who genuinely believe they have experienced paranormal stuff. I meant no offense and don't doubt that intelligent people genuinely believe they have experienced these things. Personally, I believe FalconFNs post no 33 explains why people have such experiences.

 

The argument that if lots of people believe in something, then the balance of evidence becomes weighted in its favour doesn't wash. At various points in history thousands if not millions of people have believed in dragons, mermaids, unicorns, fairies, a man in the moon and a flat earth. I suspect some still do.

 

Your philosophical question about what does 'real' mean is interesting, but perhaps a bit deep and off topic. I'm no philosopher, but I'm not a total sceptic either. I am prepared to consider that things I have not seen or experienced myself might exist, if I see credible, convincing evidence. I have yet to see anything which comes close to that for ghosts, so for the time being they are in the same category as leprechauns and minataurs AFAIK. I stand to be corrected though, on all of the above.

A good point which demonstrates the difference between belief and observation, between what people are TOLD is the truth and what they OBSERVE to be the (apparent ) truth

 

if 1000 unconnected people told me they could see the fluffy turkish delight gorilla then I would have to pay SOME interest in it...after all...what is it they see, and why is it connected to me?

NOW if it turned out they belonged to the church of the fluffy pink gorilla then I would not be concerned since ALL we are dealing with is belief and (potentially) mass hysteria, mental conditioning etc

belief is NOT the same as Observation (especially when some observers are of good standing), even granted that some observations may well be due to "mistaken identity " etc.

 

and Yes, you do right to take the stance that UNTIL you see credible, convincing evidence you should remain skeptical, else you are subject to manipulation by the unscrupulous dealers in myth and legend.

[Psyxologos]

That is not strictly accurate,research into a large number of unsolved mathematical theories is based upon the premise that the ONLY way to prove the theory consistently correct and thus universally applicable, is to PROVE that there are NO exceptions to it...hence why they are still theories and not "proofs"

 

It is this that bedevils quantum theory....proof that the exception does not exist.

 

Falsification theory. Carl Popper. I wrote a PhD on it... B)

[FalconFN]

That is not strictly accurate,research into a large number of unsolved mathematical theories is based upon the premise that the ONLY way to prove the theory consistently correct and thus universally applicable, is to PROVE that there are NO exceptions to it...hence why they are still theories and not "proofs"

 

It is this that bedevils quantum theory....proof that the exception does not exist.

And in that case the only way to demonstrate the likelihood that ghosts are not there is by constantly debunking or explaining the sightings in rational ways - which is what happens daily, either way you cannot definitively prove the non existence of something - remove the possibility to a statistically insignificant amount, but never prove.

 

Just to add that maths, although useful, is not the best example of explanations of the real world as it is abstract and inflexible. 1 -2 may be -1 but in the real world you cannot actually have -1 thing.

 

I think my point was that I have seen or heard of no compelling evidence for the existence of ghosts, vampires, fairies goblins or goat-suckers but I have heard very compelling evidence that ghosts are only real in the minds of those that believe.

[chrisjpainter]

Have I ever seen a ghost? no. Heard a ghost playing the bagpipes? well, I don't know!

We were up in Scotland on a family holiday staying in the middle of nowhere. There were always stories about ghosts and bagpipes of doom (something about a man being killed by an ogress), but you don't give them much credence do you? well on a particularly hideous Wednesday night at about 1 am I was awoken by bagpipes coming from the hills. There were no houses up there, no farms and certainly no pubs (!) so I can't properly explain it. What I will say is that this was a horrible night; one of those classic Westerly gales that batter Mull for a lot of the year howling wind lashing rain, sheep being blown across the heather etc. You'd have to be properly committed to try and dupe tourists in those kind of conditions, however much whisky you'd been bathing in that night...

[Gimlet]

No.

 

Edit: just thought I would add I don't understand why something that can walk through walls bothers to open and shut doors.

 

Some paranormal officianados believe ghosts are some kind of recording of past events, the physics of which have yet to be explained, which for some reason keep replaying. Ghost therefore may be walking through walls because when the "recording" was made the wall was not there.

There is said to be the ghost of a monk on the site of an old abbey at Shaftsebury in Dorset. Those who claim to have seen it report that it appears to have no legs below the knees. Archeological evidence uncovered some years ago when a public walkway was laid revealed that the mediaeval ground surface was nearly three feet lower than it is today.

 

I'm open minded myself, but never seen one. Yet to see anything interesting in the churchyard behind my house when I scan the NV round there at night.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Gimlet

[chacotawas]

Thanks for making something interesting out of a pretty frivolous topic! Thanks, victorismyhero, for making intelligible, stuff that would normally dae ma heid. I'm not a scientist, or a philosopher, come to that, and all I can say is that there are three people whom I know well and whom I judge to be totally sane, well-balanced and reliably adult and honest who have had experiences that would defy understanding in terms of the science we have at this time. I can only assume that somewhere in the future we'll come to an understanding of such phenomena.

[overandunder2012]

my mate gets a strange creepy banging noises in the cellar from the old interior doors stored down there think the ghost at his house has anger issues

Edited December 5, 2013 by overandunder2012

[A1Decoy]

I don't understand why something that can walk through walls bothers to open and shut doors.