Mandela died

[kdubya]

I thought he was kept there because he refused to condemn violence.

he pleaded guilty to mobilising some 156 bombing campaigns.

 

KW

[aris]

I thought he was kept there because he refused to condemn violence.

He had a life sentence - they offered to let him out if he renounced violence, but he refused. Possibly with good reason, but even by today's standards, he'd be classed as a terrorist. In the end he redeemed himself, and things could not have gone better for SA. Sadly, the country is on a slow downward spiral. Crime, corruption, and an economic disaster.

[chrisjpainter]

It might happen one day but don't bank on it, still a great deal of resentment on both sides.

Indeed. And there is still a massive economic fissure between black and white people in South Africa. Under the veneer of The Rainbow Nation lies the same old tensions, the same old fears and grievances. What Mandela was able to do was get everyone to unite behind him and claim him as their father. With him gone, it's a case of who claims the true legacy of Mandela. That will have MASSIVE sway in politics. Whoever controls the Legacy of Mandela, controls the country

[old rooster]

I was being sarcastic

Got to wonder what they will say when Adams and Macguinnes kick the bucket?

[aris]

Got to wonder what they will say when Adams and Macguinnes kick the bucket?

The comparisons are quite apt.

[old rooster]

The comparisons are quite apt.

Poachers turned gamekeepers

[Catweazle]

Got to wonder what they will say when Adams and Macguinnes kick the bucket?

i don't know what "they" will say, but personally I'll be having a glass of whiskey and a little dance.

[four-wheel-drive]

For what its worth I think that he died about six months ago and they have just been keeping him alive with machines if you can call that living say what you want about him but he did keep South Africa from going the way that most other African countries went dictatorships and civil war etc etc.

[FalconFN]

Got to wonder what they will say when Adams and Macguinnes kick the bucket?

The comparisons are quite apt.

Not the best analogy as the majority of South Africans had fewer rights than the white minority, Northern Ireland was a divided and contested country but the people lived under the same laws.

 

Say what you want about him but I can't understand the comments of the people that say he wasn't the biggest icon of our age, if he isn't who is?

 

As for being a terrorist, yes and no, in the same way the French resistance were both depending on what side you were on.

[Laird Lugton]

 

As for being a terrorist, yes and no, in the same way the French resistance were both depending on what side you were on.

 

Or the chaps that flew the planes into the twin towers?

[aris]

Not the best analogy as the majority of South Africans had fewer rights than the white minority, Northern Ireland was a divided and contested country but the people lived under the same laws.

Say what you want about him but I can't understand the comments of the people that say he wasn't the biggest icon of our age, if he isn't who is?

As for being a terrorist, yes and no, in the same way the French resistance were both depending on what side you were on.

Quite right - terrorist or freedom fighter - all in the eyes of the beholder. Same questions will be asked of the Irish counterparts - circumstances are irrelevant.

Or the chaps that flew the planes into the twin towers?

Not them, but bin laden. Mandela didn't physically do the deeds, he just called the shots.

[remmyman]

RIP Nelson Mandela

 

arguably the most prominent & iconic political leader in human history

In my book that accolade has to go to Mr Churchill !!

 

Regards Remmyman

[Splashy]

I was born one year after Nelson Mandela was incarcerated in Robyn Island. At University I attended discos held at the Nelson Mandela building at Sheffield Polytechnic. It was not until 1990 that I went to South Africa and “met” his legacy.

 

I was working at SAPT, the South African equivalent of BT, and ha himed obtained a horrific sunburn on my first day in the country. My skin had burnt and turned hard and very brown. I went to work in the morning and walked into SAPT, looking at the pictures of landmines on the wall. I worked until lunch time and then went outside. There was a carnival atmosphere and I joined in the end of a fun parade. I was not conscious of the fact that I was the only white face in the crowd. When I returned to SAPT they were very concerned since there had been a riot. I was part of that riot and was reminded of the dangers to whites.

 

Cape Town is a very clean city and when I was there that was achieved by washing down the streets (and homeless) using hoses. The blacks I was told were different to “our” blacks, they were slower and inherently unable to be full members of society. I remember calling a waiter over for a drink and getting the slow acknowledgement and sloping gait of the waiter coming over. “Where are you from?”, he asked. When I replied “England” the man changed, he changed into a waiter you would recognize anywhere, “coming right up Sir” and the drink arrived within seconds.

 

I was at a barbecue when the subject of Mandela arose. I’m glad said our host .. “then I can shoot him”. It was difficult for me at the time to understand these sentiments and I found them distasteful.

 

Around a year later I visited South Africa again and things were changing. One of our hosts told us that one of his workers had told him that when Mandela was released then he would be getting a Mercedes. He had been told this and the release of Mandela was to bring untold riches and happiness. The whites in South Africa often lived with a siege mentality and the knowledge that the cure for Aids was to rape a white woman, sowed an environment of fear and dread for any change that could occur within South Africa.

 

Nelson Mandela has proved the test of time. His legacy has ensured that the transition from White Rule to a democratic society has been unbelievably painless. There has been no civil war, no recriminations and even the “Truth and Reconciliation” trials have been carried out with an ultimate dignity and constructiveness.

 

Nelson Mandela’s legacy is that he brought upon immense change through determination and a desire to do so without the need for conflict or recriminations. In my relatively short life I have seen the two sides to Apartheid and I am amazed that Nelson Mandela managed to achieve such a massive change in hearts and minds without the needless wastage of life.

 

You will be missed.

[Malik]

Hmm... I wasnt aware of half of this history about mr mandela until now. Just googled it all, in todays world he would be in cuba

[old rooster]

In my book that accolade has to go to Mr Churchill !!

 

Regards Remmyman

A very big +1 from me!

[Splashy]

He had a life sentence - they offered to let him out if he renounced violence, but he refused. Possibly with good reason, but even by today's standards, he'd be classed as a terrorist. In the end he redeemed himself, and things could not have gone better for SA. Sadly, the country is on a slow downward spiral. Crime, corruption, and an economic disaster.

 

You are correct in that he was viewed as a terrorist. But our situation would be much better if all "terrorists" renounced violence and instead worked towards a democratic society. There can be much debate about how successful this was but the proof of time has seen South Africa turned into a peaceful society where Whites and Blacks have been able to coexist. When Mandela was released South Africa did not turn into a bitter society and despite all its problems it is still a functioning society.

[FalconFN]

Quite right - terrorist or freedom fighter - all in the eyes of the beholder. Same questions will be asked of the Irish counterparts - circumstances are irrelevant.

It's generally history, or at least the people that write it, that judge their actions. I imagine history will look favorably upon Mr Mandela and be not quite as keen on Osama (unless extremist Islam wins, that is).

[Splashy]

Hmm... I wasnt aware of half of this history about mr mandela until now. Just googled it all, in todays world he would be in cuba

 

I have also visited Cuba MANY times. With a health system very similar to ours and a society that has been damaged by the US for many years for complex reasons .. don't believe all you hear in the US news.

[JonathanL]

For what its worth I think that he died about six months ago and they have just been keeping him alive with machines if you can call that living say what you want about him but he did keep South Africa from going the way that most other African countries went dictatorships and civil war etc etc.

I share your cynisism, I'm afraid. I recall reading something to that effect some months back - that they'd switch the machines off after the biopic film was released to maximise the box office returns.

 

I may be wrong but wasn't that yesterday for previews and is tomorrow for general release?

 

J.

[chrisjh]

Adams & MacGuinness are bit players even by Irish standards certainly not even in the same league as Collins or O'Connell, the comparison has no merit Mandela was fighting a "Just" cause unless someone is going to stand up and defend Apartheid,

 

Bin Larden please have a word with yourself or leave the debate to the grown ups

 

The "Prominent & Iconic" status of Mandela flows from his magnitude for forgiveness his desire to find peace to act as a conduit to bring reconciliation to a nation and a beacon for a different option to the world when war and blood shed are so often the easy option.

 

Churchill certainly charismatic the right man for the job in 1940 talked a good game that said the UK kicked him out day after the war ended, he would struggle to make top 10

Edited December 5, 2013 by chrisjh

[aris]

You are correct in that he was viewed as a terrorist. But our situation would be much better if all "terrorists" renounced violence and instead worked towards a democratic society. There can be much debate about how successful this was but the proof of time has seen South Africa turned into a peaceful society where Whites and Blacks have been able to coexist. When Mandela was released South Africa did not turn into a bitter society and despite all its problems it is still a functioning society.

He was viewed as one because he was one. By the standards of the day and even by todays standards. I don't think SA would be what it is today if Mandea hadn't mellowed out in prison - and anecdotally he has admitted that too. He was most certainly a firebrand in his youth.

 

Sadly, he did not testify in the TRC, but his henchmen did, so many facts did come out. The transcripts are all online.

 

Don't forget that credit should also be bestowed on the majority of South Africa's white population. They voted for change in a referendum, not knowing what the future would hold if here was a yes vote. I know - because I voted in that referendum.

 

In the end though, it was the best outcome one could expect, despite all the social and economic issues in SA today. It certainly brings up a lot of philiophical questions with regards to te differences between a terrorist and a freedom fighter.

[Malik]

I have also visited Cuba MANY times. With a health system very similar to ours and a society that has been damaged by the US for many years for complex reasons .. don't believe all you hear in the US news.

I did read once about their health care. When i said Cuba i was implying guantanamo. The whole violence and the association with a group known to be an enemy of the state is at a zero tolerance level these days.

[Splashy]

He was viewed as one because he was one. By the standards of the day and even by todays standards. I don't think SA would be what it is today if Mandea hadn't mellowed out in prison - and anecdotally he has admitted that too. He was most certainly a firebrand in his youth.

 

Sadly, he did not testify in the TRC, but his henchmen did, so many facts did come out. The transcripts are all online.

 

Don't forget that credit should also be bestowed on the majority of South Africa's white population. They voted for change in a referendum, not knowing what the future would hold if here was a yes vote. I know - because I voted in that referendum.

 

In the end though, it was the best outcome one could expect, despite all the social and economic issues in SA today. It certainly brings up a lot of philiophical questions with regards to te differences between a terrorist and a freedom fighter.

 

I cannot agree more.

 

I was a bystander and saw only a small portion of the whole picture. The White South Africans forged their future through sweat and tears and it is their bravery that enabled the society to be formed. Im my view South Africa belongs to the Whites as much as it belongs to the Blacks.

 

We cannot judge South Africa by our own standards. I have picked up hitch hikers who have told me that I cannot drop them off at this village since they would be killed on the spot. We are not dealing with a society that we can understand by our own experience. Terrorist or not .. his leadership presided upon a period of change that resulted in a very favourable outcome to what could have been a horrific period in history.

[Splashy]

I did read once about their health care. When i said Cuba i was implying guantanamo. The whole violence and the association with a group known to be an enemy of the state is at a zero tolerance level these days.

 

I love Cuba, Their society harkens back to an age when there was a belief that communism could work. The people are fantastic and the government is really trying to bring itself into the main stream. If you want a fantastic holiday then go to Cuba. I will elaborate should you so wish.

[Gimlet]

Hmm... I wasnt aware of half of this history about mr mandela until now. Just googled it all, in todays world he would be in cuba

 

Yes, and the CIA would have shot him.