shalfordninja33 Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Hello Everyone, Jsut been reading this article about the Glasgow Helecopter crash http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25353001#TWEET982901 Does anyone know what this term means; : "During normal operations yesterday, one of our EC 135 fleet has experienced an indication defect that requires further technical investigation. Warning Light on the dash coming on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Potential fuel level sensor miss-information maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 It does look a bit like the absolute minimum fuel levels are reached before the sensor reacts - hence the increase in minimum fuel levels - perhaps also points to a loss/out of fuel for the Glasgow crash if there is no mechanical problem identified and yet the witnesses to the Clotha crash confirmed the engine appeared to shutdown ? They must have a sound recording ? I'm no expert but flying on a low fuel level with a possibly faulty indicator would be a possible cause of catastrophic failure, very similar to an engine failure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 I have heard / read that the pilot had 20 mins fuel remaining, which to me would mean they should have been on the ground long before they got that low. It could quite possibly have been a gauging error and If it ran the selected tank dry then yes, he would have had an engine failure! They must have suspicions if they have grounded the fleet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraivi Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Even with engine failure, the pilot should still be able to auto-rotate, an emergency landing procedure, which uses the rotors inertia and the aircrafts airspeed to maintain an amount of lift to control the descent, much like an autogyro. It seems to me like something mechanically catastrophic must have happened for the pilot to lose control of the rotors, thus preventing auto rotation. Even with engine failure. Auto rotation is constantly practiced during flight training and annual check rides. I doubt that the cause will have been as simple as twin engine failure due to fuel starvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Autorotation only works if one has enough height or forward speed. Generally if its in the hover then theres not much hope. Also the pilot could have misjudged the autorotation and missed his chosen spot, im assuming it would have been the road or river nearby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraivi Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Agreed, but he would be subject to a minimum safe operating altitude over built up areas to allow for emergency procedures to be effective, but if he lost his spatial awareness during the emergency, it is possible the pilot may have messed up his control inputs, was poor visibility a factor on the night? Guess we'll have to wait to see the outcome of the investigation. I have no doubt that such a highly trained, experienced pilot would have done all he could to prevent this tragedy. Very sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Agreed, but he would be subject to a minimum safe operating altitude over built up areas to allow for emergency procedures to be effective, but if he lost his spatial awareness during the emergency, it is possible the pilot may have messed up his control inputs, was poor visibility a factor on the night? Guess we'll have to wait to see the outcome of the investigation. I have no doubt that such a highly trained, experienced pilot would have done all he could to prevent this tragedy. Very sad. If he were not aware of the low fuel, he might have been caught unawares - perhaps the only reason such an experienced pilot would crash? There are probably wires/cables / whatever in the area which impeded his descent and caused the craft to tilt on coming down? However, as you say - speculation. I once witnessed a heli crash where the owner/pilot tried to land under low power lines and crashed into them - I witnessed it. When the air accident investigation reported it said that the engine failed and the heli 'fell' into the path of the power lines. Nothing was further from the truth, engine maintained full power throughout - I was 100 yds away. He was simply showing off and had done the same thing on the previous circuit - taking locals from the pub for a 'spin'. Heli literally crashed and burned with one man in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. I do hope the victims relatives find the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 As I understand it the fuel light came on but the gauge indicated there was more fuel in it. They have said it's not related to the Glasgow crash and 95 litres of fuel was removed from the Scottish aircraft. Wraivi you can fly at 600 ft over built up areas at night. That will not give the pilot much time to react or pick a location for a landing if both engines fail. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypaint Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Im at eurocopter tomorrow do I'll find out what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shalfordninja33 Posted December 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 I wait with interest Andy.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraivi Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 (edited) Quote: Wraivi you can fly at 600 ft over built up areas at night. That will not give the pilot much time to react or pick a landing spot 600 ft is low...you learn something new every day couple this with darkness and possible poor viz and its easy to see a result like this and wonder if vertigo could have played a role in the disaster? I can remember reading about a u.s. navy experiment on vertigo, where non IFR trained naval pilots lost spatial awareness within an average of 16 seconds after the loss of visual references. A chap I used to fly with back home lost his life in a chopper crash experienced guy, fuel starvation at low altitude was the given cause, through fuel system failure. He was low and slow at the time. Edited December 13, 2013 by wraivi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Auto's use a lot of acquired experience through persistent practice - but it's the luck of the draw where you get the very non flexible opportunity to land it fist time with no previous recce. That is one of the reasons single engine heli's are not permitted (I believe) to hover over a built up area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Forgive me chaps but how likely to get a double engine failure ? Isn't that why they looked at gearbox? I presume there's only one of those ? Is this heli just twin - engined to reduce the weight (of a bigger engine/ design considerations but really both engines are fed by the same fuel system? It seems strange that they would not have seperate fuel system as a precaution. Sorry, I am very aeronautically naive but equally interested in the cause of such a severe failure. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypaint Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 (edited) All I can say is possible problems with the shape of some fuel tanks and fuel gauge and throw in some vibration to the fuel. But still early days and only the p r a t t and witney models affected. So for now they are all running with more fuel in. Just want to add that this current problem has not been linked to the Glasgow crash. Its just a glitch that has been picked up and the media have run with it. Edited December 13, 2013 by andypaint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Quote: Wraivi you can fly at 600 ft over built up areas at night. That will not give the pilot much time to react or pick a landing spot 600 ft is low...you learn something new every day couple this with darkness and possible poor viz and its easy to see a result like this and wonder if vertigo could have played a role in the disaster? I can remember reading about a u.s. navy experiment on vertigo, where non IFR trained naval pilots lost spatial awareness within an average of 16 seconds after the loss of visual references. A chap I used to fly with back home lost his life in a chopper crash experienced guy, fuel starvation at low altitude was the given cause, through fuel system failure. He was low and slow at the time. Wraivi all the reports I've seen say the weather was fine and they were not in cloud or fog. The pilot had 1000's of flying hours and would not have been suffering with vertigo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Forgive me chaps but how likely to get a double engine failure ? Isn't that why they looked at gearbox? I presume there's only one of those ? Is this heli just twin - engined to reduce the weight (of a bigger engine/ design considerations but really both engines are fed by the same fuel system? It seems strange that they would not have seperate fuel system as a precaution. Sorry, I am very aeronautically naive but equally interested in the cause of such a severe failure. Thanks Very unlikely to get a double engine failure. They are twin engines for safety as they can fly on one if needed. There is one main tank and the fuel if pumped into two supply tanks, one larger than the other. These feed separate engines. If you ignored all of the warnings and let the supply tanks run out one engine would go out 90 seconds before the other giving you enough time to put it on the deck. All I can say is possible problems with the shape of some fuel tanks and fuel gauge and throw in some vibration to the fuel. But still early days and only the **** and witney models affected. So for now they are all running with more fuel in. Is the new problem only a P2 not T2 problem then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmyman Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Didn't get the full gen on this when it happened. Is it possible that the pilot had a massive heart attack/stroke? or do they have a co-pilot/navigator? Regards remmyman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Didn't get the full gen on this when it happened. Is it possible that the pilot had a massive heart attack/stroke? or do they have a co-pilot/navigator? Regards remmyman Only one pilot and he would have had a PM before the funeral. I don't think he would have turned the engines off if he had a heart attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmyman Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Only one pilot and he would have had a PM before the funeral. I don't think he would have turned the engines off if he had a heart attack. Fair point, as mentioned don't know much as regards this terrible incident Regards remmyman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypaint Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Very unlikely to get a double engine failure. They are twin engines for safety as they can fly on one if needed. There is one main tank and the fuel if pumped into two supply tanks, one larger than the other. These feed separate engines. If you ignored all of the warnings and let the supply tanks run out one engine would go out 90 seconds before the other giving you enough time to put it on the deck. Is the new problem only a P2 not T2 problem then? No idea I just do the paint work for NPAS. Don't think there sure themselves yet. But they don't seem to think it's a major problem though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Was it a paint problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypaint Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Was it a paint problem? Blooming hope not!!! I still think could be gearbox related but time will tell I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypaint Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 With everything thats gone on the renaming from eurocopter to airbus helicopters couldn't come soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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