hitting to many that fly away??

[pork chop]

 

It comes down to speed and weight. Either calibre is producing the same ft lbs of energy. ie: I shoot 14.3 grain accupelles in my .22 AA s310, compared to a heavy 11 grain .177 pellet there is very little difference. With an FAC in .177 that is say 30 ft lbs the pellet will fly so fast you won't be able to hit anything. So it is always a balance. .177 for feather .22 for fur only applies to sub 12 ft lbs and even then it is misleading.

was talking sub 12 ft lbs ,never owned 177 in fac cant see the point.i know 177 and 22 have the same energy more or less sub 12 ft lbs but i have always found 22 to be better on pigeons.based this over many years and many guns,not saying 177 is no good just that i prefer 22.for many years now though i use a 22 fac best of both worlds ,it will take any pigeon that presents it's self out to 80 yrds if i do my bit. be it a head or body shot which ever is the best choice at the time dont limit myself to one or the other

[srspower]

was talking sub 12 ft lbs ,never owned 177 in fac cant see the point.i know 177 and 22 have the same energy more or less sub 12 ft lbs but i have always found 22 to be better on pigeons.based this over many years and many guns,not saying 177 is no good just that i prefer 22.for many years now though i use a 22 fac best of both worlds ,it will take any pigeon that presents it's self out to 80 yrds if i do my bit. be it a head or body shot which ever is the best choice at the time dont limit myself to one or the other

 

I have always seemed to shoot .22 better myself, although like I said, I use a light pellet. A lot of it is tuning. I am lucky with my s310 as it was made before anti tamper regulations were put in. So it means I can select my pellet of choice, sort, wash and lube it then adjust the power for that exact pellet.

 

So many people who think their rifle is '12 ft lbs' are really shooting at around 10.5 ft lbs or perhaps over the limit all because their rifles power wasn't set for the pellet they like to use.

[pork chop]

found that myself to ,177 always seemed to take a little more input to get the best out of it (talking standing shots here) no bad thing .rightly or wrongly put this down to locktime dont rearly know for sure.the worst gun i had for this was a .25 eliminater that took some getting used to but when i did it was very good not much under 40 yrd got away from that,pellet droped like a house brick though so changed back to 22 before long

[srspower]

found that myself to ,177 always seemed to take a little more input to get the best out of it (talking standing shots here) no bad thing .rightly or wrongly put this down to locktime dont rearly know for sure.the worst gun i had for this was a .25 eliminater that took some getting used to but when i did it was very good not much under 40 yrd got away from that,pellet droped like a house brick though so changed back to 22 before long

 

Yes its a question of getting your ideal speed .25 is perfect for 60 ft lbs but at 30 ft lbs it's way to heavy and so has to much of a trajectory. A lot of people misunderstand the physics with airguns. .22 requires a lot less air than .177 to get the same power hence why a .177 travels to much faster and therefore much flatter. It's because the .177 stationary has far less potential energy due to it weighing less.

 

A ten tonne stone ball moving at 0.0005 mph will still have far more ft lbs of energy than a 1 tonne stone ball going at speed until the 1 tonne ball goes so fast its speed makes up for its lack of weight and even then every yard it travels it loses energy the ten tonne ball always has, If that makes sense?

Edited January 5, 2014 by srspower

[HW682]

 

Yes its a question of getting your ideal speed .25 is perfect for 60 ft lbs but at 30 ft lbs it's way to heavy and so has to much of a trajectory. A lot of people misunderstand the physics with airguns. .22 requires a lot less air than .177 to get the same power hence why a .177 travels to much faster and therefore much flatter. It's because the .177 stationary has far less potential energy due to it weighing less.

 

A ten tonne stone ball moving at 0.0005 mph will still have far more ft lbs of energy than a 1 tonne stone ball going at speed until the 1 tonne ball goes so fast its speed makes up for its lack of weight and even then every yard it travels it loses energy the ten tonne ball always has, If that makes sense?

 

I don't want to take the thread off topic, but I am not sure your example does make sense.

 

It depends what you mean by "going at speed" of course. At 0.005 mph the 1T ball has more kinetic energy than the 10T ball at 0.0005 mph.

 

[Momentum (mv) would be equal, KE (0.5mv²) would be higher]

 

The ball of 1/10 mass needs to go at a bit over 3x the velocity (ie square root of 10) to match KE due to the velocity squared factor.

[kent]

Yes its a question of getting your ideal speed .25 is perfect for 60 ft lbs but at 30 ft lbs it's way to heavy and so has to much of a trajectory. A lot of people misunderstand the physics with airguns. .22 requires a lot less air than .177 to get the same power hence why a .177 travels to much faster and therefore much flatter. It's because the .177 stationary has far less potential energy due to it weighing less.

 

A ten tonne stone ball moving at 0.0005 mph will still have far more ft lbs of energy than a 1 tonne stone ball going at speed until the 1 tonne ball goes so fast its speed makes up for its lack of weight and even then every yard it travels it loses energy the ten tonne ball always has, If that makes sense?

But a .25 Eliminator if producing 60 ft lb might be the worst shooting gun I could think someone might have the misfortune to cock or shoot.

[pork chop]

But a .25 Eliminator if producing 60 ft lb might be the worst shooting gun I could think someone might have the misfortune to cock or shoot.

i can tell you their not nice at 30 ft lb,now i'm not small and found it hard to cock .twenty shots and my elbow knew about it .least i tried one and it was a good gun when i got used to it .fun on pigeon's though knocked them out of tree's no mistake

Edited January 5, 2014 by pork chop

[srspower]

 

I don't want to take the thread off topic, but I am not sure your example does make sense.

 

It depends what you mean by "going at speed" of course. At 0.005 mph the 1T ball has more kinetic energy than the 10T ball at 0.0005 mph.

 

[Momentum (mv) would be equal, KE (0.5mv²) would be higher]

 

The ball of 1/10 mass needs to go at a bit over 3x the velocity (ie square root of 10) to match KE due to the velocity squared factor.

 

My point was the projectile itself contains energy PLUS the air required to move it. So a heavier object needs less force put upon it to give the same energy as the lighter one. So in terms of shooting every pellet weight effects the ft lbs if the power put upon the pellet stays the same.

 

So a '12 ft lb' air rifle is only 12 ft lbs for the specific projectile weight it was chronod at.

[Dekers]

Please Ignore!

 

 

Edited January 5, 2014 by Dekers

[Dougy]

I was thinking about getting back into air-rifle shooting, but it seems they are'nt as good as they used to be in the olden days.

 

I think after reading this i will stick to either a shotgun or my 22.250 for pigeons, they seem to be more reliable.

[GingerCat]

Christ a 22/250 for pigeons, just shoot them in the head or heart.

I've shot hundreds if not thousands of pigeons with a sub 12ftlb airgun, a Springer as well, and not had an issue of them flying off unless I've missed (only human so it does happen).,

Keep the range within limits, mine is 30 yard or maybe on a a perfect day 35. Most are less.

Either head shot (they don't constantly Bob about) or if facing away then through the centre if the back an inch below the neck, or maybe if above straight up through the chest.

It's not armour plated.

If pushed I would say I prefer .177 for feathered body shots buts it's marginal at best. More importantly is accuracy shot placement.

[Dekers]

I was thinking about getting back into air-rifle shooting, but it seems they are'nt as good as they used to be in the olden days.

 

I think after reading this i will stick to either a shotgun or my 22.250 for pigeons, they seem to be more reliable.

 

:lol:

 

ATB, but a 22-250 for pigeons, well I took one apart with my .243 once, but we all do things once in a while!

 

[HW682]

 

My point was the projectile itself contains energy PLUS the air required to move it. So a heavier object needs less force put upon it to give the same energy as the lighter one. So in terms of shooting every pellet weight effects the ft lbs if the power put upon the pellet stays the same.

 

So a '12 ft lb' air rifle is only 12 ft lbs for the specific projectile weight it was chronod at.

 

I think you know WHAT happens eg .177 uses more air for same ME and different pellets can give different ME etc.

 

However, your explanations as to WHY it happens are at best a bit confusing.

 

(I don't want to take the thread off topic, the only reason I commented is because you specifically said your post was about the physics of airguns.)

Good Hunting

 

 

It's the other way around

 

< is less than....

 

> is more than

 

So 2 is less than 8 = 2 < 8

 

agreed

[dadioles]

It might just be worth checking your zero.

 

Pointing up into the trees does change the zero point from a "normal" zero set on the horizontal.

 

It can make a significant difference and you may easily be out by an inch. The pellet will shoot high, so aim low.

 

Distance can also be deceptive.

[Michael170874]

I was sat shooting roosting pigeons in my wood with my rapid 7 it was doing 24 ftbls the birds were 30 yds away several. Flew away after being shot then the next fell but got up and ran after dispatching it i saw a huge tear in its crop where my pellet had struck .

I realised those that flew away were being protected by the 20 or so acorns in the crop it was like hitting a brick wall the noise it made when the pellet struck was mad you just sat there waiting for the bird to fall.ive even had this with my shotgun where the pellets have refused to penetrate the crop when packed out with rape .so unless you place the pellet on its head you will never be certain of a clean kill

[David M]

Woodies tend to sit still on the ground and hold their head out just perfectly for my 11.2ftlb .177 pcp out to 35 yards if uneasy. Ferals tend to walk about all the time then just fly off if anxious so I wait for an easier shot with them walking away from me. As said many times, a central shot between the shoulder blades puts them down without a twitch so I prefer that choice. Same with birds like Collared Doves, kep moving on the ground but make easy targets in trees as they mainly keep their head still...

[clayboster]

some shooters are also missing the spot, i explained this to a friend who had a similar problem, he showed me on a picture where he was aiming, it was a joke, him thinking he was hitting em in the chest, yes he was but not in the right spot the area he pointed out to me was the crop...and hit from the side his .177 was going straight thru (overkill?) . it is missleadeing when not given a second look, so aim slightly lower than you may think..hope this helps.