Scully Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 you seem to lose interest in threads very quickly.you were asked to supply facts on your statement all you did was quote hearsay from a forum by largely anonymous people.surely there must be documented cases if the police are that bad.atvb There are indeed many documented cases of Police being 'that bad' as you say there surely must be,and the various shooting organisations will no doubt be able to give you all the relevant info' you require. BASC have full knowledge of Durham licensing authority regarding the infamous GP's letter, and Durham weren't the only one, and possibly many instances of being left with no valid certificate at renewal time. You could always ask them couldn't you? Whether you believe me or not is of little concern to me.atvb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I know someone that happened to. He asked for a section 7 certificate when he was told his certificate would run out before the new one was issued. He was told there was no need, and if he was stopped or questioned about it he should point the officer to the firearms dept. No disrespect but I shan't be giving you names, dates or 'checkable' details of the above as I don't have a clue who you are. I can however assure you the above is 100% correct. i take it he had that in writing from his firearms dept.so he could produce if needed or was it done on the phone.as a phone call is not worth the paper it is written on.what possible difference does it make if you know me or not if they are actual cases gone through the legal system then they are within the public domain anyway.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 i take it he had that in writing from his firearms dept.so he could produce if needed or was it done on the phone.as a phone call is not worth the paper it is written on.what possible difference does it make if you know me or not if they are actual cases gone through the legal system then they are within the public domain anyway.atb No he didn't have anything in writing, he was told face to face by his FEO on the home visit for his renewal. I was there and was witness to it. As I said earlier, no disrespect but I won't divulge people's names or details to people I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Guys I feel we have either a plant or a troll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 No he didn't have anything in writing, he was told face to face by his FEO on the home visit for his renewal. I was there and was witness to it. As I said earlier, no disrespect but I won't divulge people's names or details to people I don't know. I think you will find that it is the chief constable who issues and signs off any temp certificate and this would be done normally after you request it in writing.they cannot refuse unless there is just cause.i never asked for names or addresses but anything that goes through the legal process (courts)is automatically then in the public domain.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Guys I feel we have either a plant or a troll A plant.do you mean like mi5 or the cia..how exciting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bull Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Guys I feel we have either a plant or a troll No troll or plant here mate just letting those three fellers discuss this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Heard on the radio this morning North Yorkshire police are holding a web chat between 5 and 6 for the public to help them better understand firearms law.Did anyone take part? Any feedback? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 So when is/ was this chat? Anyone attended it if its been/going to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bull Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 So when gis/ was this chat? Anyone attended it if its been/going to? Did anyone take part? Any feedback? I dont really know I only caught the end of it and it just said they were holding a web chat between 5/6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobba Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Guys I feel we have either a plant or a troll As I raised the Question at post #15 I wonder if this is aimed at me? I am neither. I was (and still am) genuinely interested in what evidence existed which supported a sweeping and generalised criticism of the police mis-interpreting the law to suite their own ends. Implying that the problem was endemic. An answer was given to which I responded by saying I could see where the respondent was coming from. I could. It was indeed sweeping generalisations and heresay. And when challenged by others the author went to ground, which speaks volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I stress this is my own opinion and I have already said I would never directly reply to a posty from a certain member but check the cogency of certain of his more recent replies - I 'd call it 'agent provocateur' but troll may be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) Me. November 1990. Met Police. Shooting holiday to Scotland, 1st full week of November. Cert. expiry 5th Nov. Right in the middle of the week. Renewal sent in plenty of time, but not received in the week leading up to trip. Requested section 7 temp. permit. Told I didn't need one. I asked what would happen for example if I was pulled over whilst driving there or whilst there (local plod around Loch Leven used to pull goose shooting parties in the early hours to test for drink driving) with guns but no valid cert? Was told by Met. Police, that if pulled, just tell local police to contact Met. Went higher and demanded section 7 and quoted conversation, as I was being asked by Met. Police to break the law as it was too much trouble to either issue cert or section 7. Renewed cert. issued two day before trip. i am all for people or organisations being held to account if they behave in a manner not inkeeping with the rules.but the cases you have sited have no substance,please give names dates and checkable details.as for things posted on here about how unfair the police have been well a large pinch of salt is mostly needed.how many people were refused certificates because they never supplied a doctors letter?.there is a thread on here at the moment about how the police took someones guns away for no good reason.yet a firearms solicitor asked £8,000 to defend the case well excuse me but there must be more to it for any legal experts costs to come to that. Edited February 18, 2014 by Penelope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 As I raised the Question at post #15 I wonder if this is aimed at me? I am neither. I was (and still am) genuinely interested in what evidence existed which supported a sweeping and generalised criticism of the police mis-interpreting the law to suite their own ends. Implying that the problem was endemic. An answer was given to which I responded by saying I could see where the respondent was coming from. I could. It was indeed sweeping generalisations and heresay. And when challenged by others the author went to ground, which speaks volumes. You can interpret my 'sweeping generalisations' as endemic if you wish, whether this is so I really couldn't say, but the examples I gave are certainly not hearsay.As I have already said, the information is out there if you care to look , the fact that many of said instances don't end in court is no indication of a lack of attempts by licensing to interpret licensing legislation as they see fit rather than as it is meant. Far from going 'to ground' I'll come out to play anytime you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Me. November 1990. Met Police. Shooting holiday to Scotland, 1st full week of November. Cert. expiry 5th Nov. Right in the middle of the week. Renewal sent in plenty of time, but not received in the week leading up to trip. Requested section 7 temp. permit. Told I didn't need one. I asked what would happen for example if I was pulled over whilst driving there or whilst there (local plod around Loch Leven used to pull goose shooting parties in the early hours to test for drink driving) with guns but no valid cert? Was told by Met. Police, that if pulled, just tell local police to contact Met. Went higher and demanded section 7 and quoted conversation, as I was being asked by Met. Police to break the law as it was too much trouble to either issue cert or section 7. Renewed cert. issued two day before trip. So where is the problem..you requested your s7 in writing and as they are not allowed to refuse under home office guidlines unless there is just cause. they issued you with a new five year certificate before your old one expired.so where exactly is the problem.it takes more effort to operate within the rules and that is where a lot fall.put things in writing keep records and you will be fine.do not take the easy no effort route and just give a quick phone call.this thread began with a police force doing a web thing to give the public a better understanding of firearms license.which is a good thing.if you do not trust them then go on take part.i am sure if they are trying anything underhanded the experts in law from pigeon watch could expose them for the incompetents you all claim them to be.the home office rules take a few minutes to go through for the main points so if you follow them and write in with any complaints you will have right on your side and will win the day.if the police were to interpret the rules to suit themselves surely nobody with a criminal record would hold any firearm yet thousands do.or have I got that wrong as well.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I stress this is my own opinion and I have already said I would never directly reply to a posty from a certain member but check the cogency of certain of his more recent replies - I 'd call it 'agent provocateur' but troll may be the same. Could this possibly be me.among my previous posts I have said in my own case I would be happy to provide a doctors letter.pay a higher price for renewal if it meant a faster and more efficient service.which brought in loads of angry posts yet I thought a forum was for all to have their own opinion.this thread is no different s I said at the start if the public are educated to the workings of firearms licensing and the reason people have guns then that can only be a good thing for the sport.but then out come the police knockers and that's another good thread gone. Agent provocateur.really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) The deceit lays with the fact the applicant was told they didnt need a permit. If the applicant hadnt iinsisted he was issued with either his ticket or a permit then he would have been in breach of firearms law. The Police were in full knowledge of this but told the applicant a permit wasn't necessary. Why? Edited February 18, 2014 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 The deceit lays with the fact the applicant was told they didnt need a permit. If the applicant hadnt iinsisted he was issued with either his ticket or a permit then he would have been in breach of firearms law. The Police were in full knowledge of this but told the applicant a permit wasn't necessary. Why? Again I would suspect this was by phone.if everyone put things in writing or even email with a read report then perhaps there may be a reduction in mis information.people you have to play your part to.change does not just happen it is made to happen.with effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I'll admit having everything in writing is a good idea, but to use it as a method of ensuring a licensing authority plays by the rules/law shouldn't really be necessary. Should they not be doing this simply as a matter of course? Why should it make any difference whether the poster was given this info over the phone? It was entirely false information. Regards my own experiences I simply call in at Cumbria Police HQ firearms licensing dept and knock on the door to get things sorted. I'll admit not everyone can do this but HQ is just down the road so mine are mostly sorted face to face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I'll admit having everything in writing is a good idea, but to use it as a method of ensuring a licensing authority plays by the rules/law shouldn't really be necessary. Should they not be doing this simply as a matter of course? Why should it make any difference whether the poster was given this info over the phone? It was entirely false information. Regards my own experiences I simply call in at Cumbria Police HQ firearms licensing dept and knock on the door to get things sorted. I'll admit not everyone can do this but HQ is just down the road so mine are mostly sorted face to face. as you say it should be a matter of course.however we do not live in a perfect world.as far as I can see it is only a few forces that need pulling into shape.so if people affected by them were to take a few minutes to write a clear and concise letter putting in a few quotes from the home office notes on firearms licensing maybe in a couple of years these forces would get the message.all correspondence with police is registerd and if they are seen to be lacking they will be questioned by their governing body.they are public servants and accountable.with anything important phone conversation is no good and easily denied but written is not so easily dismissed.my own licensing authority is in my experience very good.all of the fao's are approachable.as far as I know all shoot so have more than a passing interest.it is in my opinion in our own hands to protect our certificates.after all its once every five years.not much really.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) The problem old fruit is that if I hadn't kicked up a fuss I would not have had my cert. in time, neither would I have had a section 7, and I suppose you think it's ok for the Police to say, 'Ah, you don't need a section 7, just get the local plod to call us if you get lifted'? The Met Police, asked me to break the law for their benefit. So where is the problem..you requested your s7 in writing and as they are not allowed to refuse under home office guidlines unless there is just cause. they issued you with a new five year certificate before your old one expired.so where exactly is the problem.it takes more effort to operate within the rules and that is where a lot fall.put things in writing keep records and you will be fine.do not take the easy no effort route and just give a quick phone call.this thread began with a police force doing a web thing to give the public a better understanding of firearms license.which is a good thing.if you do not trust them then go on take part.i am sure if they are trying anything underhanded the experts in law from pigeon watch could expose them for the incompetents you all claim them to be.the home office rules take a few minutes to go through for the main points so if you follow them and write in with any complaints you will have right on your side and will win the day.if the police were to interpret the rules to suit themselves surely nobody with a criminal record would hold any firearm yet thousands do.or have I got that wrong as well.atb Lazy ******** was the impression I got. The deceit lays with the fact the applicant was told they didnt need a permit. If the applicant hadnt iinsisted he was issued with either his ticket or a permit then he would have been in breach of firearms law. The Police were in full knowledge of this but told the applicant a permit wasn't necessary. Why? Edited February 18, 2014 by Penelope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 The problem old fruit is that if I hadn't kicked up a fuss I would not have had my cert. in time, neither would I have had a section 7, and I suppose you think it's ok for the Police to say, 'Ah, you don't need a section 7, just get the local plod to call us if you get lifted'? The Met Police, asked me to break the law for their benefit. Lazy ******** was the impression I got. Not at all me ol china.as I said write in and all will be well.as I said it is in our hands to get change.you expect action from them so you may have to show some in the first instance.but somehow I doubt you will care for the next few years.but that's fair enough.it strikes me as a little bizarre that people spend hours every week on the computer tapping the keys yet cannot take a few minutes to compose a letter for something they claim to be passionate about.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Next few years?? This was 1990 me ol mucca. Didn't have a PC back then, but a good ol' 'and written job did the trick. Not at all me ol china.as I said write in and all will be well.as I said it is in our hands to get change.you expect action from them so you may have to show some in the first instance.but somehow I doubt you will care for the next few years.but that's fair enough.it strikes me as a little bizarre that people spend hours every week on the computer tapping the keys yet cannot take a few minutes to compose a letter for something they claim to be passionate about.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Next few years?? This was 1990 me ol mucca. Didn't have a PC back then, but a good ol' 'and written job did the trick. So has it improved in your area now or have you given up shooting.and if it has improved who is to say your letter did not play some part in getting that improvement.forces do not like to issue sect7 as they are monitored by home office and questioned on why.so they will do their utmost to avoid it.but if you write in it forces their hand.and if you have had no further problems in the past twenty years or so then you have nothing to complain about.surely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 14 posts out of 49 have you made you view clear now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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