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RSPCA and some MP's want to ban Shock Collars


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I used one to stop my dog from rolling in fox poo. It worked a treat, and I wouldn't hesitate to use one again.

You might hesitate mate as they are banned in Wales now, the fine is £20,000 if caught http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8584028.stm

 

I have to say if used properly they have a place in the tools available to training, what i hate is the people who buy them because they think they will be the "holy grail" that will make their dog a brilliant gundog.

For a persistent offender like Catweazle has pointed out a bit of aversion therapy is what may be called for.To dismiss them out of hand is wrong,in the right hands and the right situation they are a tool like everything else.

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You might hesitate mate as they are banned in Wales now, the fine is £20,000 if caught http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8584028.stm

 

I have to say if used properly they have a place in the tools available to training, what i hate is the people who buy them because they think they will be the "holy grail" that will make their dog a brilliant gundog.

For a persistent offender like Catweazle has pointed out a bit of aversion therapy is what may be called for.To dismiss them out of hand is wrong,in the right hands and the right situation they are a tool like everything else.

Thanks for pointing that out, I had no idea.

 

I assume I can simply remove the electrodes and use the Beep function instead, if the need should ever arise.

 

Regarding use of the collar, the dog should never know that it's you triggering the beep / zap. He should think the behaviour causes it. For example, my dog associated rolling in fox poo with a shock, so he stopped doing it almost instantly.

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I agree that his faults are down to my poor training, however I absolutely disagree that it is doing the dog any harm, and it makes the situation manageable. One of the shoots I beat on he is the only dog that is actually working off the lead quite often, so he has to cover a lot of ground quickly. Not an ideal situation for the dog, me or the shoot, but it is what it is. The end result is a reasonably satisfactory one and the dog does himself far more damage going through the cover than an occasional tingle in the neck achieves.

 

Tim,

Have you picked up on the most important factor in Scotslad post "you have no idea exactly what the dog is doing" . What is meant is even triggering the go switch by accident at the wrong moment can prove disastrous. Seriously they can be that fast effective even on very low settings. This is why I personally believe they should be best employed in pure aversion work, especially were the situation has been set up in advance.

The dog itself needs a very clear association with action and re-action and the advantage of these things is they are split perfect on timing- if the owner is ready, get the timing wrong and the dog could be picking a bird etc.

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Guest rimotu66

Cant stand them and would never use one, had a chap beating on the shoot a few years ago who had one on his young dog, he walked one way, the dog walked the other so rather then call it he gave it a belt on the collar , I have never heard a dog yelp so loud before, when I got chance to have a word out of others earshot I told him if he ever did that again I would strap the collar around his balls and let him have a belt at full power, I do not recall him using it again.

 

Just my opinion of course.

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I understand that Kent. If I were expecting him to learn from the shock it would be one thing, but it actually is just an extra to the whistle when he's got the red mist when hunting. It seems to be enough to distract him temporarily and is a tool, like a whistle for controlling him. It isn't ideal and I wish I had made a better job of training him, and had him as a puppy in the first place, but it is a means to an end and has absolutely no detrimental effect on the dog or his drive to work. My previous dog would have been a disaster to have used a collar on, but this one is very single minded and has a very high level of tolerance for discomfort. I took him to the vets with a cut on his leg a couple of years ago and they wanted to put him under anesthetic to stitch it up. I assured her he would be fine, so she stitched it up without anesthetic and he just sat there and nodded off while she was doing it.

 

Dogs are all different and this solution, while not ideal, works OK for me and my dog.

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I don't disagree and admit that is the case for me. I do absolutely refute that it does this dog any harm though.

 

Physically at the lower settings I certainly agree, it can harm its work / training if you trigger it at the wrong time though as its odds on that is when it actually cures the issue (which might be anything but an issue).

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Tim it's no secret kent has no idea about taking a dog beating. It's not ideal to use a collar but it is an emergency stop when you need it whether it's just the beep or shock. You won't affect it's picking up as those who beat know its rare to pick up shot birds while doing so and you are well aware if you do get to pick any

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I must say, I've been going beating on a number of different estates from commercial shoots to family and farm shoots for well over a quarter of a century and can count the number of dogs trained to the standards people often assume all spaniels need to be trained to, on the fingers of one hand! The two dogs I've been lucky enough to own have never ruined a drive yet by running amok. Other dogs around me have on occasions spoilt a drive, it can happen very easily.

 

My current dog needs the extra brakes, so I use the collar as a safety net, rather than spoil a drive for people who have paid a lot of money to be there, or are proving their salary for the year on one of the eight or ten occasions they have to prove their worth!

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Tim it's no secret kent has no idea about taking a dog beating. It's not ideal to use a collar but it is an emergency stop when you need it whether it's just the beep or shock. You won't affect it's picking up as those who beat know its rare to pick up shot birds while doing so and you are well aware if you do get to pick any

 

Or Al4X who has also admitted to using one on his GWP on shoot days (as insurance from rioting) which was then subsequently bred from it, mm :hmm: You keep assuming I have never in my life been to a shoot or worked dogs on one because I CHOOSE not to shoot driven birds, you are dead wrong. Pegged birds are far from unknown from experienced (if somewhat freelance dogs) and also not forgetting many pricked birds are quite legitimately picked from previous days. The question is only what or if these birds should be added to the bag tally with paying guns :whistling:

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I stopped my dog running in with a collar that squirts air under the chin, the reason i had to use that was i put her on to game to quick so that's my fault, but she is perfect now and turned out to be a cracker.

 

She got use to the rabbit pen so i had to do train her in the field.

 

My opinion of the collar is that they are best left with the professorial dog trainers and should be licensed.

 

 

Best Regards

Neil

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I don't think it's anything like a stun gun, sorry can't see the comparison, never used an electric collar myself but I can see the sense in what scotslad has wrote

disagree you should not have to electrocute a dog in any amp or ohm whatsoever personally my dog isn't on the whistle he his on voice command and hand signals, people using other methods of conversing with there dog has obviously no close relationship with them...

And before any remarks my cocker is not a FTC but a £150.00 undershot not registered dog no one else wanted to take on..

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A farmer friend kept having a problem with a dog (collie) just taking off to round stock, unfortunately on the other side of an A road. He had trained his own sheep dogs for 50 years but couldn't get it to stop occasionally doing this. shocked twice with a collar and never did it again, without a doubt either the dog would have died or a car/biker would have been injured/killed avoiding the dog. I think this is a justified use of a collar.

 

On another note I know a kennel training another breed who use collars as the default training method, and not on tickle mode either, I happened to be there when one guy was there getting his rottweiler trained, lovely dog but never been trained and no recall ... method used= Shout dog to come, no instant reponse then fry dog

 

The rotty was screaming as it was shocked and they just kept going till it came back, the idiot who was paying for this training thought it was brilliant! This was also the first time I have seen a cattle prod, used apparently when training man work but this wasn't used while I was present.

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A farmer friend kept having a problem with a dog (collie) just taking off to round stock, unfortunately on the other side of an A road. He had trained his own sheep dogs for 50 years but couldn't get it to stop occasionally doing this. shocked twice with a collar and never did it again, without a doubt either the dog would have died or a car/biker would have been injured/killed avoiding the dog. I think this is a justified use of a collar.

 

On another note I know a kennel training another breed who use collars as the default training method, and not on tickle mode either, I happened to be there when one guy was there getting his rottweiler trained, lovely dog but never been trained and no recall ... method used= Shout dog to come, no instant reponse then fry dog

 

The rotty was screaming as it was shocked and they just kept going till it came back, the idiot who was paying for this training thought it was brilliant! This was also the first time I have seen a cattle prod, used apparently when training man work but this wasn't used while I was present.

This is the issue when people talk of professional only, its bound to include professional idiots

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Do you electrocute kids when there infants ??? Do you electrocute kids to learn them ???

A well learned dog understands it's master...

Have I corrected my kids? Heck yes! Not with an-e collar but That is all a collar is a correction and unlike so many in this thread I have used one on myself even on full wack! I don't own one now as I don't need one and I might not for many years but if I ever needed one to correct a hard head and they were banned the other solution might well be to PTS
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disagree you should not have to electrocute a dog in any amp or ohm whatsoever personally my dog isn't on the whistle he his on voice command and hand signals, people using other methods of conversing with there dog has obviously no close relationship with them...

And before any remarks my cocker is not a FTC but a £150.00 undershot not registered dog no one else wanted to take on..

The whistle is used for two reasons 1. it carries better and clearer to a dog 2. it disturbs far less game than the human voice especially at volume. The fact that gundogs are not yelled at "stop" , "turn", "come" etc when they are the other side of the field has no reflection on their tractability or understanding of words vocalised or the close relationship. Why is it all shooting and hunting folk don't all get the fact that its bad to ban something you do not fully understand. By the way do you mean FTCh?

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Have I corrected my kids? Heck yes! Not with an-e collar but That is all a collar is a correction and unlike so many in this thread I have used one on myself even on full wack! I don't own one now as I don't need one and I might not for many years but if I ever needed one to correct a hard head and they were banned the other solution might well be to PTS

i must be fortunate then only having to give all of my dogs love and training and not shocks ..
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The whistle is used for two reasons 1. it carries better and clearer to a dog 2. it disturbs far less game than the human voice especially at volume. The fact that gundogs are not yelled at "stop" , "turn", "come" etc when they are the other side of the field has no reflection on their tractability or understanding of words vocalised or the close relationship. Why is it all shooting and hunting folk don't all get the fact that its bad to ban something you do not fully understand. By the way do you mean FTCh?

don't need to yell as my dog has been trained not to go too far in front 25 yds max, without a collar , and has for ftch your been picky kind sir .

Atb delburt0...

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My old dog was very easy to train and worked as close as I wanted him to and listened out for the whistle. Very reliable, thorough and easy. The present dog is another story. Much faster and harder hunting, but definitely works for himself and not for me. They are different animals entirely. Most spaniels are more like my old dog, but if you get one like my current dog it's a lot different prospect and takes more skill and time than I've got to get him as close to perfect as I'd like. I expect some of the trial dogs are more like my current dog as they go so fast. I would think most normal shooting blokes would find fast hunting dogs a bit of a challenge too. Easy enough to keep track of them in and open sugar beet field, but in thick woodland they easily get away from you.

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don't need to yell as my dog has been trained not to go too far in front 25 yds max, without a collar , and has for ftch your been picky kind sir .

Atb delburt0...

 

Not picky, just making a point about knowledge, does you dog not retrieve then? I say this because if it wont go further from 25 yards from you your going to struggle to pick everything. Any gundog worth the name should make 100 yards on a blind and a retriever 4-5 times that amount, heck of a way to command it with a low voice. :lol:

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i must be fortunate then only having to give all of my dogs love and training and not shocks ..

 

Not really most dogs respond well to this but I have never met a good one that the owner / trainer never corrected. Not all dogs need an e-collar (in fact very few do) I prey you never get one. For a dog things have to be black and white with no grey (that doesn't mean beasting them)

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My old dog was very easy to train and worked as close as I wanted him to and listened out for the whistle. Very reliable, thorough and easy. The present dog is another story. Much faster and harder hunting, but definitely works for himself and not for me. They are different animals entirely. Most spaniels are more like my old dog, but if you get one like my current dog it's a lot different prospect and takes more skill and time than I've got to get him as close to perfect as I'd like. I expect some of the trial dogs are more like my current dog as they go so fast. I would think most normal shooting blokes would find fast hunting dogs a bit of a challenge too. Easy enough to keep track of them in and open sugar beet field, but in thick woodland they easily get away from you.

 

Totally agree Tim, trial dogs are getting too hot for the shooting man across all the breeds.

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As i said earlier not a big fan of them but do agree they have a place as a last resort when use CORRECTLY will be a godsend, but i fear the majority of them are probably not being used correctly and either being cruel to dogs or creating the problem that ur dog only behaves when the collar is round its neck.

 

I bought 1 for my wire but could never bring myself to use it, by time i have had dummy collar on for 2 weeks or more i just carry on with out it, wish i had as i'm sure it would have made life a lot easier, but i went back to long lines and chasing the b ugger down, ur never going to tell me chasing 100+ yards (not because it has ran off, but becuase it quarters at thart distance) over rough ground to catch ur dog and then drag it back to the exact spot where is disobeyed u to give it a row really works, the dog hasnae really got a clue by the time ur out at it, yet with a collar it could have had a tickle or vibrate there and then instantly, and if ur dog knows the basics and knows wot it should off done thats all it would take

 

Very few normal gundog breeds would need a e collar but is far more common in the hpr scene and not many owners who haven't got 1, wether or not they have used it. Really should be a last resort

 

1 of the moors i was at up north a few years ago 1 off the flankers was a vet who had a collar on there dog 'just in case' even thou spent most of its time on lead or at heel. If they were so bad do u really think a vet would use 1 in public?

 

Tim u sound like u know wot ur doing, have u tried putting ur collar on the dog all the time, for walks, training and every time out house, so it gets so uesd to collar forgets its on, then intro it to game and set up the things ur worried about, ur trying to achieve ur dog to forget about the collar and not associate it with the shocks so u can eventually take it off for working ur dog. Even with a 'hot' dog u should be able to work it just got to keep ur eyes on it ALL the time and react to it before it 'goes on 1'

 

I believe they can be a great training aid if used correctly but i don't think they should be seen on shoot days, i wouldn't dream of taking a dog that was still on a long line as not steady to a shoot so why take any other dog that is not steady.

None of my dog s are fancy trained yet can sit them all in a release pen, or work all day on driven shoots when there shooting 3 figures a drive

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