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Looking for a first dog.


demonwolf444
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Looking for a first dog. Currently got my eye on a GSP, as a lot of my shooting is rough shooting and i do a lot of beating are there any pit falls of this breed, known difficulties ect.. it is advertised as trained but i do expect to and willingly will put a lot of work into the dog

 

The main advice i have been given with dogs is be consistent in training and regular.

 

All advice taken. I will be buying books.

 

James.

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I would not think a GSP will make a great beating dog , no doubt someone will come along and say they will though !

 

For rough shooting and beating I would choose a Springer or Cocker all day long over a GSP.

 

A GSP is also going to be much more difficult to train to a good standard , especially if you are in experienced .

Edited by fenboy
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Its been used for picking up and beating on a grouse moor and its just over a year of age so i imagine it may be a bit wild, its not necessarily a pointer i will get just that one has come up reasonably priced and close by so i have an eye for one. I am definately looking for a dog more for flushing than for retrieving. I would say i was very much at sea when it comes for dogs so please do give me all your thoughts...

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If its been trained and then sold off cheaply then there is normally a reason , I would be very suprised if a GWP is anything like fully trained at 12 months , they are notorious for being slow to mature .

 

There is little point of having a dog that will flush but not retrieve ! , I can only repeat my earlier advice , for your needs get a spaniel , springers can be had for a very reasonable price as they seem a little less in favour than cockers nowdays .

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A good spaniel will still cover the ground on open moors. Pointers are extremely difficult to train which combined with the majority of British shooting ground being of mixed type, a good all rounder is a spaniel or a lab. Nothing against pointers, fascinating to watch when trained properly but for beating and rough shooting you will find life is easier with a spaniel

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My first Gundog was a GWP and providing you put the effort in they are not impossible for the first timer. Yes other dogs are easier but your asking less of it so if you want a GSP then go for it. My dog is used for rough shooting most of the time and he's fine. Covers a bigger area than a spaniel or lab ever would and points when he finds something and brings if back if I shoot it. What more can I ask for.

I've never seen a trained HPR of any breed at 12 months so be wary. If it was trained by that age I certainly would not be getting rid of it.

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should not even consider buying a 12mnth old GSP that had already been out shooting full stop. Get a springer from a good solid shooting line without too much hot trialing blood in it as a puppy and don't take it in the shooting field till its ready stopping to flush, whistle and shot and 99.9% obedient (no dog is ever 100%).

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Wot are u wanting to do with it? Grouse beating or pheasant beating.

 

A spaniel or lab will always be a better more suited dog for beating or shooting over, unless u want a dog to point and have ground for it DON'T buy a pointer/hpr

 

An hpr is only suited to grouse moors if ur shooting over it, just a nuisence to beat with on the moor unless it is not steady to the flush, otherwise u will constantly have to leave ur place in line to flush the birds leaving a big hole in the line, and believe me grouse beating can be hard enough without walking the extra m's getting ur dog to flush birds, will very soon get sick of it esp on a moor with a lot of grouse

 

Some grouse dogs are absolutetly terible, i've seen keepers spaniels and labs quarter further than plenty of hpr's :whistling: but on a drive 3miles long u can get away with having a dog a 'bit' forward.

 

Reading between the lines this dog must be cheap? If its cheap there will be a very good reason! As others have said most HPR's are still a puppy at 1 yr old so would severely doubt its fully trained and if it has already done much work could be storing up a heap of trouble for the future.

The dog may be a natural, may be fully trained and may be working like a demon but if it is expect to be paying 3-4 grand for it. I know 1 GWP on sale for 4K the now brillaint retriever but slighly headstrong hunter, never made the grade for trialing

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Peoples idea of 'fully trained' vary wildly and as others have said fully trained at 12 months old already having been shot over does not sound quite right, especially if it is cheap.

 

Get a spaniel as it will tick all the box's you want. But if you do go to look at this dog take someone with you with some experience of what you are looking at. Am sure an experienced member would go with you, but be prepared to walk away or you could end up with a dog that wont do anything you want.

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I do everything which is my problem ha! In the season i can be beating four to five days a week maximum. Although usually its more like three. Out of season, rabbit shooting, and pigeon shooting a lot.

 

I occasionally go up on the moors, in which case they are pretty strict.. From the pickers up, anything with enough beans to be running back and forth all day and a good nose seems to be welcome.

 

Most the beating is for small syndicate pheasant shoots, short drives, 6 - 9 drives a day, woods and cover crops. Want a dog that will work out infront of me for beating and rough shooting, never been keen on labs at all as most wont work through anything more than thin cover.

 

Quite fancy a springer but its just finding one that is not a million miles away. Basically i fancy buying into one of the syndicates but they want more dogs, they kind of thing we are short of is springers more than labs, as we have plenty of dozy old labs.

 

James.

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beating 100% time cocker/spaniel

beating/picking up (commercial hovering up) spaniels then labs

beating/picking up non commercial/ long retrieves more control wanted labs

 

we have lads and spaniels and you can get them but its harder to push a spaniel back over 100yrds consistently

look at job requirements (type of shooting) then choose the correct tool not the one you like, if this is your first dog

you will get a lot of pleasure if you get it right but loathe It if you go on a whim experience is learnt ATB

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Do you get the impression you're only going to be advised to get a lab or a springer here?

 

I have gone down the HPR route and from personal experience I can't see how this dog would be fully trained at a year old. I have spoken to trainers just recently as I was worried about the progress of mine at a year old and have never been told by anyone that he should be anywhere near ready at this stage. Double it and possible treble it before they start to calm down enough to be steady.

 

Why not get in touch with a local HPR trainer whom you will probably need and tell them what you want and see what they say.

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Cosd its not anyone is against hpr's as such, i think shooting over a good hpr/pointer is better than any driven day and would swap it any day of week.

But the simple fact is 95% of uk shooters do not have the ground to get the full benefit out of an hpr

Ur trying to push a square peg throu a round hole to start with then the fact it will take 2 or 3 times as long to mature and train. Why would u want an hpr. It would be quite possible (not ideal thou) to shoot over a lab or spaniel at that age.

In my opinion wot ur trying to do with ur dog is a complete waste of a decent dog/breed, buy a dog bred for purpose u intend to use it for.

U don't see many shepards trying to train Old english sheepdogs or some european/african herding dog, they already have the collie (just as shooters have labs and spaniels) why do u need anything else? They do all u could ask for

 

The simple fact is a lab or spaniel has been bred exactly for wot most u shooters do! A dog that goes on point in middle of a thick wood or quarters at long distances in small woods is no good to anyone.

 

On most of the shoots in my area labs will be more common by 5-1 in the beating line than spaniels. There must be a reason?

Never had a problem getting a lab into cover either, won't hit cover needlessly like a battering ram but if there scent in there they wil be in there, infact seen my lab in cover that carp spaniels have turned there nose up at.

Also never quite understood this whole lab/spaniel cover thing, i train my dogs mostly the same labs to hunt and spaniels to retrieve, yes the spaniel will hunt harder but not massively so, if ur lab won't hunt cover how is it meant to pick up/sweep areas?

 

If u can't find a springer in N Yorks ur in trouble :) i got my springer over that way. Should be plenty if u look about

The ammount of beating ur doing i would strongly NOT recommend an hpr, i love them on open country but just not up to the job in the beating line, and both u and dog will never be happy

 

Wot ever u decide do ur homework and pick a dog from the rigt lines (i'd reccommend staying away fromanything to FT as can be hot (spaniels))or labs might not have a proper coat) just a decent working line, ideally a dog u've seen or been reccommended of someone u beat with.

Ur going to have dog for next 10+ years so try to pick well

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Only you can say what dog you want. You will only agree with opinions that match your own and disagree with those that don't. To do the job you want a lab or spaniel would be 100% perfect. But. If you want a gsp get one. I hear the Malaysian red spotted snake eating shepherd dog will be the next big thing, apparently they are born trained . Lol

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I have a GSP and wouldn't swap her for the world. I use her for everything apart from on the peg.

I use her all through the season beating on the shoots, she holds a point and flushes on command. More often than not flushes the birds that the labs and spaniels run past. ( no disrespect to them at all I like how they work ) and all the guns always comment about her.

 

Rough shooting is a dream as its so easy, I like the fact that they don't work too far in front and when you get the point - flush and retrieve it makes the training all worth while.

 

I also have a Vizsla who is an absolute machine when it comes to beating!

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From experience, I highly recommend a working cocker if you can regularly take it walks - they have a lot of energy.

However, Labradors are lovely companions and are simple to train, but they tend to be slower and are better suited to picking up rather than beating

 

A Labrador is born half trained, a spaniel dies half trained

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I do everything which is my problem ha! In the season i can be beating four to five days a week maximum. Although usually its more like three. Out of season, rabbit shooting, and pigeon shooting a lot.

 

I occasionally go up on the moors, in which case they are pretty strict.. From the pickers up, anything with enough beans to be running back and forth all day and a good nose seems to be welcome.

 

Most the beating is for small syndicate pheasant shoots, short drives, 6 - 9 drives a day, woods and cover crops. Want a dog that will work out infront of me for beating and rough shooting, never been keen on labs at all as most wont work through anything more than thin cover.

 

Quite fancy a springer but its just finding one that is not a million miles away. Basically i fancy buying into one of the syndicates but they want more dogs, they kind of thing we are short of is springers more than labs, as we have plenty of dozy old labs.

 

James.

To explain something, a lab will go into cover if it KNOWS there is something there OR if its owner DIRECTS it in. A spaniel will go in just on the off chance. Any dog not brought up to go into heavy cover regardless of breed might baulk the option. The only thing I might add it Labs can get very handy at pegging in cover as their motivation IMO is all about fetching and carrying, I suspect that's why previous generations didn't encourage flushing dogs to retrieve.

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Having both German Wirehaired Pointer and a mixed breed from German Spaniel and Kleiner Münsterländer I have some reflections to the initial question.

 

I use my GWP for pointing and I think it would be a waste of the potential and genes of that breed to use it as a flushing dog. Buy a spaniel or retriever for that.

My mixed breed points at birds but drives other game.

 

Being a pointing dog trainer, I have one reflection on the "fully trained" thing, especially at 12 months of age, I would say it is possible that the trainer has tought everything (?) and the dog has responded by doing what the trainer wanted but hey the dog is still very young. I don't think the training has settled it self in the dog, so you will need to keep on training for at least a year before you can call the dog "fully trained".

 

But of course it is like someone said before, you put in different things in "fully trained".

For me it means that I have trained all I want the dog should do and that the dog has proven in different situations that it knows and does what I want.

 

The thinks I demand from my dogs (now talking pointing dogs) is that

the dog should walk by my leg when my other dog works (without a leash of course),

it should stop or come to me on command,

when pointing on a stand it flushes on command and stops directly when flushed birds are in the air.

Work as a retriever in all situations either it retrieves a bird it saw fall down, or retrieve on command or it should follow my directions to where I saw the bird drop and start searching from there.

Being my comrade in the pigeon hide, wildfowling, geese hunts, hare hunts etc.

And of course being a nice *gentle* family member. The last part is hard for ANY type of German Pointers in the young age as the energy takes over and they need a lot of stimulation like training excercise etc. :)

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Finally come around to the idea of a springer. I have found a liver and white bitch whelping locally this month, so i will be seeing them as soon as is practical. Mother is working stock, KC reg the lot, father is from stud with all the bells and whistles liver and white, both look like great dogs from what i have seen, but will reserve judgement till i have seen in the flesh. Leaving early June, which also happens to be around my birthday.. so exciting!

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