shootingmike Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Some background.... I have a 4 year old Lab that we've had from a pup. His parents are known, good strong working dogs. Over the years, I've done loads of work with him and would say he's fairly obedient (stops to whistle, comes back to whistle, walks to heel on and off the lead). I've not done as much shooting as I'd like due to work shifts and other commitments but the dog has done some pigeon shooting, roost shooting, wildfowling (ducks and geese), and a bit of pheasant / partridge rough shooting. He's just not done loads of it. He's a fairy timid dog for no obvious reason. He's very loving and loyal but you only have to look at him wrong and his head and tail goes down, to be honest, it's a bit annoying because he's not roughly handled at all. I try to keep him sharp (ish) by taking a dummy out every time I walk him. I also have a large garden so have scope for training at home too. The problem I have is with delivery. He drops the dummy short, anywhere from 4 feet to 10 feet. I have tried calmly placing the dummy back in his gob but he hates it and gets timid. I then try and encourage him to do another retrieve and crouch down to encourage him all the way back. All this seems to do is make him drop it earlier and he then cowers the rest of the way back as if he knows he's done wrong but does it anyway! I've tried running backwards but again, he never brings it all the way back. One suggestion was to try in the garden over much smaller distances. This doesn't work as he just isn't excited by the dummy in the garden for some reason. He will sometimes sprint towards it then stop, or run round it ignore it completely. If he does pick it, again, he drops it short on the way back. So help! I've bought a clicker but can't think of ways to strip back to basics and re-introduce retrieving. I've "loaded the clicker" so he understands click means reward for actions, but don't know what to try. Also, just thought - he always tries going round me when retrieving, even after dropping the dummy. Any help appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_7 Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 im sure theres more experienced people on here than me, but maybe going right back to basics? stair landing with a ball or dummy so when he comes back he cant go round you or escape, maybe by re learning thats the right way with loadsa praise and gradually introduce out in garden, then back into the field...... good luck matey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landofficer Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Eye contact is not a good thing when retrieving turn you back or lay on the floor to make it different . Also are you putting wings or rabbit skin on the dummy that can create more energy in the retrieve. Just a couple to start with there are loads of things to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingmike Posted April 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Ah. That's a good idea. He does seem a bit funny with eye contact so that could be worth a try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 What happens if you lie on your back looking up at the sky as soon as he picks the dummy and give recall? Just do it once and let us know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireboy Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 shootingmike if you have a wife or kids get them to chuck the dummy and see if he retrieves it if he does it might be something about you. we have 2 labs my wifes dog want do jack sht for me i chuck the dummy for her she runs up to it then goes of for a wander yet the wife chucks it sprints to it brings it back to hand perfect yet we both trained them together yet my boy will retrieve for both of us if that fails try the dummy covered in a rabbit skin like landofficer has said it might just be he board of the dummy if all else fails go to a trainer they will be able to help and it might be something so simple and it could be money well spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) If you have been constantly throwing dummies he may just be bored with it , as mentioned try attaching some wings or fur. Instead of just throwing them go hide some in light cover and get him to search for them , when you are throwing dummies out collect most of them yourself , he will perhaps be more excited if he thinks he is only going to get the odd one himself . Try something like playing with a ball , let him run into it, work on steadiness once he has the retrieving desire back. Edited April 10, 2014 by fenboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Hi Sorry you got a problem no expert but this may help Take him out big area with hill try to get returns down hill send for retrieve better if he will do blind but trow it up hill As he's coming back turn and walk down hill pat your leg as if your calling him to heel he should just come in under your hand and hopefully pretty fast as he thinks your going without him if he's still got dummy don't take it off him he pretty soon carry it beside you Well that's how I'd try for what it's worth All the best Of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh air Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 Hi, definately no expert either but I got a part trained 3 yo lab about 2/3 months ago and he wasn't returning to hand so I focussed on it the last few weeks, here's what I did in case it helps: When he's bringing it back in, encourage him with however you'd normally recieve him for praise (i.e. I tend to bend slightly and put my hands down to pat him/clap him in - watch how he reacts to this as I would have thought it should "perk him up") If that's still not working or to mix it up try moving back slowly at the same time so he's still coming in at pace and then slow up moving yourself back so he's coming in fast and you can get to praise him and retrieve the dummy before he's slowed up and dropped it (i.e. you walk back and then stop/slow up before he realises he's into a hand delivery) and the main thing for mine was if he got close and then dropped it I'd say "no" clearly and walk back from the dummy, pointing and looking at it, he naturally realised what I wanted and knew the "drill" wasn't over so would pick it back up and return to hand... Sometimes I still have to send him back "on to it" from a few feet to reinforce it Should say that before step 1 I spent a few days just calling him back in for praise so that whenever he comes back to me he knows he's getting some reward Final bit is that I have been rewarding really good retrieves with biscuits and mixing that with general praise to keep him interested Hope that helps! PS - Now onto water retrieving because he loses his ******* mind everytime at the moment!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 The laying flat on your back while he retrieves should work but encourage him to just carry things around. My lab always comes to collect the papers out of the mail box and gets to carry one back to the Memsahib. Give encouragement for the carrying not the delivering. Mine will run around for ages with a paper or letter - Even squats to pee then carries on without dropping it. Playing ball with him and letting him get excited over the chase might help - He'll bring it back if he knows you are going to throw it again straight away. Good luck - It's always a problem knowing what to do for the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 The laying flat on your back while he retrieves should work but encourage him to just carry things around. My lab always comes to collect the papers out of the mail box and gets to carry one back to the Memsahib. Give encouragement for the carrying not the delivering. Mine will run around for ages with a paper or letter - Even squats to pee then carries on without dropping it. Playing ball with him and letting him get excited over the chase might help - He'll bring it back if he knows you are going to throw it again straight away. Good luck - It's always a problem knowing what to do for the best. Unlike many it is not a fix suggestion, I wanted to know what happened hence the once. It just illuminates certain issues from the equation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoonbed Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 I would start at the beginning. Quietly and gently place a dummy in his mouth, while your sat watching the telly, in the kitchen, on the bog( ie anywhere) Softly, whilst he's holding the dummy, give him the hold command and plenty of strokes/praise. Keep doing this for as long as it takes for him to be comfortable holding dummy. Then get him to walk alongside you holding dummy.. Eventually, when you reintroduce the retrieve, when he's on the way back to you, repeat the hold command if you have to( but you probably won't) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingmike Posted April 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 Some good ideas chaps.ill try some this weekend. The moving backwards doesn't work, he still drops it short. Also, he doesnt come in the house so there'll be no telly watching together! I have reservations about balls as I have two kids and don't want him harassing them when they play with balls in the garden. I'll try it if necessary but am also worried about getting him over excited. Another problem I didn't mention was that despite his timid nature he gets very excited and I've had to introduce clicker training to try and stop him spinning in circles. So, abit of a catch 22 isn't it. I need him excited to retrieve well but don't want him spinning like a fu@@@@g idiot! I think I'll try no eye contact and / or laying down first..... Thanks again all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 with respect its taken 4 yrs to get to this, I shouldn't really be "trying" anything seeking a cure. I am not saying this cannot be fixed but you do need help beyond the forum advice, it might be as well for you to go straight to a pro as I am positive this wont just happen if you stop looking at the dog at this late stage or lie down a few times. Lying down is just an interesting test if you have the wit to observe what occurs on the first occasion, it basically puts most dogs completely off their guard (the more you do it the less it works). I will bet if you get yourself down to a good trainer used to handling people and observing dogs they will put their finger on the issue very fast, without diagnosis you are unlikely to cure things it is here that the focus should be. Thereafter its a long road as the behaviour now learned will be well ingrained, the dog might have long forgotten the actual why bit a couple of years back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) Is there a chance you might have been ####ing the dog in the garden for picking up the two kids' items? In your first post you say he cowers all the way back home as if he knows he's done something wrong. He might think he's done something wrong but he as sure as hell will not know what the something is.He drops things short because he some how thinks this is what he has to do.He's either getting rewarded for it or has been rewarded for it in he past and for a long period. Edited April 12, 2014 by Bazooka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 Is there a chance you might have been ####ing the dog in the garden for picking up the two kids' items? In your first post you say he cowers all the way back home as if he knows he's done something wrong. He might think he's done something wrong but he as sure as hell will not know what the something is.He drops things short because he some how thinks this is what he has to do.He's either getting rewarded for it or has been rewarded for it in he past and for a long period. This might be my guess but that is all it is, its hard to draw any conclusions from a post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingmike Posted April 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2014 (edited) Ok. Quick update. After being too busy to walk him for a couple of days, I got the dummy out the shed earlier and was pleased to see he was excited by it. So, I tried lying down in the garden as soon as I threw the dummy. He sprinted to the dummy, picked it up and carried it all the way back, jumping all over me with it still in his mouth! Tried it twice more with the same result so left it at that. Gave him loads of praise. I did suspect that the eye contact thing was bothering him so will try next time to stay standing but with my back turned. I've just thought as well... when pigeon shooting he brings pigeons all the way into the hide to me so it could just be a bit of dummy boredom thing. Might try a rabbit skin... Edited April 13, 2014 by shootingmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted April 13, 2014 Report Share Posted April 13, 2014 (edited) Put your hide chair in the garden,sit on it and chuck the dummy for him. Edited April 13, 2014 by Bazooka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted April 13, 2014 Report Share Posted April 13, 2014 Ok. Quick update. After being too busy to walk him for a couple of days, I got the dummy out the shed earlier and was pleased to see he was excited by it. So, I tried lying down in the garden as soon as I threw the dummy. He sprinted to the dummy, picked it up and carried it all the way back, jumping all over me with it still in his mouth! Tried it twice more with the same result so left it at that. Gave him loads of praise. I did suspect that the eye contact thing was bothering him so will try next time to stay standing but with my back turned. I've just thought as well... when pigeon shooting he brings pigeons all the way into the hide to me so it could just be a bit of dummy boredom thing. Might try a rabbit skin... Happy for you. I'd keep lying down for a few days before getting ambitious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 (edited) Ok. Quick update. After being too busy to walk him for a couple of days, I got the dummy out the shed earlier and was pleased to see he was excited by it. So, I tried lying down in the garden as soon as I threw the dummy. He sprinted to the dummy, picked it up and carried it all the way back, jumping all over me with it still in his mouth! Tried it twice more with the same result so left it at that. Gave him loads of praise. I did suspect that the eye contact thing was bothering him so will try next time to stay standing but with my back turned. I've just thought as well... when pigeon shooting he brings pigeons all the way into the hide to me so it could just be a bit of dummy boredom thing. Might try a rabbit skin... Great, that jobs over now! You have just proved the dog is nervous of you on delivery. You might be doing it by a simple look or it could just be the pressure you convey to him through your body language. What is does show is it can be fixed, though continuing to lie on you back will wain very quick with the dog and its not a practical thing to do out shooting anyhow LOL (the idea is its a shock to them and totally non dominant / off putting). If you want it fixed get to a gundog pro or very seasoned amateur (some are even better than some pro- trainers) do it now as it is a mistake you are making some place not the dog, it might be snatching, staring or any manner of things, myself I am a natural bad snatcher when shooting I want the bird in the bag ASAP and it takes only a careless hurried move by me to start this messing from a dog just examine that "been to busy to walk him" thing, forget the obvious welfare thing for now this could simply be an extend the boss time thing at the end of the day and like I say it needs to be seen by someone other than you as its hard to observe yourself Edited April 14, 2014 by kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 If it was snatching causing the problem he would be struggling to get a retrieve to hand in the hide.The dog sounds like he's intimidated when you are stood uo waiting for a retrieve.You could be stepping towards him as well without you realising it.He might be seeing this as an aggressive posture.That' why I suggested you should try moving onto your hide chair after having success lying down. Find a way to increase your height gradually and build up the dogs confidence in you again slowly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 It might be, it might not nobody has seen it we are going off reports, although honest how do you observe yourself- its impossible. In my experience the only dog that wont come in with the retrieve to a man laid flat out on his back the first time is likely one that wont ever be fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 The chap is making progress with the non threatening approach.It is easy to camcorder things to see yourself and the dog interacting.It is also easy to get someone else with experience throw a dummy and see if the dog acts in the same way with them.In my experience there are very few gundogs that can not be fixed when it comes down to retrieving.There is always a cause and always a cure.Think positive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 Few I agree None I don't. Its a skill reading the interaction between dog and handler not just a logistical problem of how to see IMO, people also change under the camera lens. Lets face it it cant harm to try as there has been 4 yrs of getting to this point it might be hard to make things worse but those in those 4 yrs you might think it might have been sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 4 yrs you might think it might have been sorted. Not if he chap can not see where he's going wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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