Inclusion of the Greylag Goose onto the General License

[poontang]

A FOI request to NE should shed some light as to what's really going on here.

 

My guess would be that the vast majority of SL's issued in the period quoted would have gone to councils/charities.

 

There is also the possibility that game shoots with duck drives would want rid of Greylag's and wild Mallard from their hand bred birds. Hence the inclusion of the Game shooting and Gamekeeping Committee in the response from BASC.

[scotslad]

A FOI request to NE should shed some light as to what's really going on here.

 

My guess would be that the vast majority of SL's issued in the period quoted would have gone to councils/charities.

 

There is also the possibility that game shoots with duck drives would want rid of Greylag's and wild Mallard from their hand bred birds. Hence the inclusion of the Game shooting and Gamekeeping Committee in the response from BASC.

 

Why would game shoots want rid of wild mallard? If anything is true it is the oppisate, lots of reared duck tend to mean less wild duck come to a pond.

Wild duck are a far more sporting bird thaan reared will ever be, dunno why any shoot would want rid of them.

 

Nothing like a bit of divide and conquer is there? Bad enough that Basc aren't standing up for us without picking on each other. Think house boats saying is quite good time to get fingers out and actually vote for an sgm or reply to the NE consultation or else we deserve wot we end up with

 

Yes Conor i live on the sloway so lucky to have big numbers off migratory geese, never realsied the greys never moved much further south

[islandgun]

Quote in the last 20 years the breeding Mallard population has increased by 20%

 

Why is that bad ? surely this is good it's called conservation lets enjoy this increase in numbers of a harmless bird

 

Scotslad who can prove that Greylag don't go down south ?

Edited May 11, 2014 by islandgun

[anser2]

Quote "here is also the possibility that game shoots with duck drives would want rid of Greylag's and wild Mallard from their hand bred birds. Hence the inclusion of the Game shooting and Gamekeeping Committee in the response from BASC."

 

How right you are Pootang. I know of one duck shoot that will not have geese on their ponds and lakes. All geese are shot at with a rifle by the keeper if they attempt to use their waters.

[anser2]

Quote "hardly any migratory greylags visit England apart from the Solway."

 

True Conor , but there is a large resident population of greylags in Scotland as well as migratory birds.

[Old farrier]

Hi

Just out of interest have any special licences been applied for on publicly health or air safety grounds for

Swans ?

All the best

Of

[IEH]

 

Canada geese were added to general licences in England from 2005 onwards. The average numbers of Canada geese shot per wildfowling visit on the Crown Estate has increased since they were added on to the English and Welsh general licences.

 

Conor,

 

I sense that you have very carefully chosen your words (above). Unless I'm missing something, the Crown Estate returns show that the actual number of Canada Geese shot in the season 2012/2013 was the lowest recorded since at least 2005. The Mallard return in 2012/2013 was also significantly lower than that for any year since at least 2005.

Edited May 11, 2014 by IEH

[Conor O'Gorman]

 

Conor,

 

I sense that you have very carefully chosen your words (above). Unless I'm missing something, the Crown Estate returns show that the actual number of Canada Geese shot in the season 2012/2013 was the lowest recorded since at least 2005. The Mallard return in 2012/2013 was also significantly lower than that for any year since at least 2005.

 

no, they are higher than 2005

On Saturday 50 people emailed BASC copies of their responses to the consultation. All contained some very well put arguments for and against the various proposals. Of those 50 emails received on Saturday three were opposed to the greylag/mallard proposals.

[Donkey]

There has been much talk on this subject what are our options now

Do we gather 1300 for a sgm to show a vote of no confidence

Form another association 7000 fowlers is a good start

Many have said on this thread they will leave BASC where will you go

I just think we will get nowhere with BASC on this and it's time to take another route

Donkey

[IEH]

 

no, they are higher than 2005

Well I'm confused then! Am I completely misreading the Wildfowl returns season summary which is linked to on this webpage http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/coastal/wildfowling/

[Conor O'Gorman]

Well I'm confused then! Am I completely misreading the Wildfowl returns season summary which is linked to on this webpage http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/coastal/wildfowling/

 

Analysis shows that the average numbers of Canada geese shot per wildfowling visit on the Crown Estate has increase since they were added on to the English and Welsh general licences.

[IEH]

 

Analysis shows that the average numbers of Canada geese shot per wildfowling visit on the Crown Estate has increase since they were added on to the English and Welsh general licences.

Well that's not reflected in these returns Conor.

Edited May 12, 2014 by IEH

[strongbow]

"On Saturday 50 people emailed BASC copies of their responses to the consultation. All contained some very well put arguments for and against the various proposals. Of those 50 emails received on Saturday three were opposed to the greylag/mallard proposals."

 

That would be about right as the percentage of wildfowlers to non wildfowler members is about 5%

 

I believe that was the purpose of the email on Friday, to rally some support saying "come on guys help us reduce th red tape" most non wildfowling members would be fooled by the figures on wildfowl, that I believe are misleading.

 

Then BASC can say they asked their members and claim that shooting geese out of season is what the majority wanted.

 

It's Politics 101

Edited May 12, 2014 by strongbow

[Reabrook]

Well that's not reflected in these returns Conor.

I'm guessing that this is yet more BASC spin! The numbers per Wildfowling visit may well have increased. All that tells us on those figures is that there has obviously been less visits as annual numbers of Canada's shot are clearly down.

How long can BASC continue to defend the undefendable. Time to man up admit you got it wrong and prevent any further damage to an organisation I've previously defended for over 30 years.

[Grandalf]

How long can BASC continue to defend the undefendable. Time to man up admit you got it wrong and prevent any further damage to an organisation I've previously defended for over 30 years.

 

This is the crux of the matter. We fowlers may only be 7% of total BASC membership but we are totally united in out opposition to this decision.

For god's sake BASC Council man up to it and admit you have made a mistake.

How long and to what lengths does this farcical situation have to continue.

[Kes]

Whist I agree with Houseboats comments about changing BASC's perspective on GL and Greys, I am saddened that wildfowlers see (after perhaps many dissapointments) that a takeover of BASC Council is the solution to meet their needs.

I am a rough shooter, gameshooter, pest controller and I have much sympathy with your argument. I would like to see all geese off the general licence and a far better system of Special Licence to deal responsively with the individual needs to control that will arise.

Why only review the GL every decade, why not every year as AGREED returns guide policy?

 

Do not neglect that you have a majority of fellow shooter prepared to respect well reasoned argument and act with you to stop OUR organisation doing the wrong thing.

I would gladly sign any request to review the BASC position on Greys combined with a focus on why they should i.e. Special Licence approvals should be simplified.

To say that issue cannot be raised because it wasnt in the consultation paper is worrying.

So, go ahead, try for an SGM for this issue - you will have my support.

Let us not however reinforce the 'them and us' approach.

If BAC's other members wont roll-up to support this when their wildfowling colleagues have argued so passionately for it, then you need to restart WAGBI - I would join.

[Barls2-9-12]

Well I'm confused then! Am I completely misreading the Wildfowl returns season summary which is linked to on this webpage http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/coastal/wildfowling/

Yes that makes two

[Kes]

Make that 3

 

All returns for Greylag/Mallard/Canada show a reduction (this year) 2013 from 2012.

The point about numbers of visits is perhaps true - that is down, apparently.

 

I am beginning to feel I cant read it correctly either.

[holloway]

Make that 3

 

All returns for Greylag/Mallard/Canada show a reduction (this year) 2013 from 2012.

The point about numbers of visits is perhaps true - that is down, apparently.

 

I am beginning to feel I cant read it correctly either.

The important word is average ,if next years returns are down again i think we are in more trouble than we thought.!

Edited May 12, 2014 by holloway

[Klammer]

Houseboat (Ian)

 

Would I be correct in saying that our club (KLWNWA), like so many others, have no choice but to be in BASC, because of the terms and conditions of the Crown Estates lease?

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[black powder gunner]

As a farmer with a sizeable acreage not that far from the Humber estuary we get quite a lot of geese grazing on our land these can be local bred greylags last year up to 5000 at any one time and migrating pinks and greys.They start coming late August to feed on the stubble that has small amounts of corn that have gone over combine these cause no damage what so ever even do some good.The problem is that most farmers do not leave over wintered stubble and are ploughed up very quickly and planted with winter wheat rape or barley which the geese switch their attention to by now they are in season so can be shot and scared off. The only time it is a problem is Febuary and early March then they disappear to breed .At this time of year we use rockets and gas bangers with no problem if it was we could get licence to control them so no need for them to go onto GL. I am also on the district council and sit on the planning committee during the winter we had an application from a housing association wanting to fill a pond in because the ducks were been fed and were causing a lot of mess we went on a site visit to see for our selves. What we saw was a pond of about acre set in a park land setting with mature trees and well maintained grass and paths surrounded by houses a real nice place to go for a walk.But over the years the residents had encouraged mallard ducks by feeding them and there was about 200 on the pond and the paths and grass were just covered in mess not healthy when young children about.We refused there apllication and pointed them to NE to apply for a licence of which they did numbers reduced job done so yes the present system does work so if it is not broken why mend it.

[kent]

no, they are higher than 2005

 

On Saturday 50 people emailed BASC copies of their responses to the consultation. All contained some very well put arguments for and against the various proposals. Of those 50 emails received on Saturday three were opposed to the greylag/mallard proposals.

Again you are the enemy on this why should any one of us send you anything you might try and counter? we have been stone walled and misrepresented and fed some very misleading stuff to justify your case in my opinion. NE are the important ones to e-mail. IF and when this gets passed then it will be the media both sporting and otherwise printed, electronic that will be called upon because making the wrong choice for the wrong reasons is so loved by these bodies. Either way it don't look good for BASC regardless how you spin it, what you should have been on is damage limitation and apology mode but the feet don't fit in those boots no more I feel when you read through your comments

[Conor O'Gorman]

strongbow, you asked about the purpose of the action alert BASC email we sent members last week - this was to encourage people to respond to the consultation calling for the general licences to be simplified.

 

The message was:

 

BASC calls for general licences to be simplified

General licences were introduced more than 20 years ago as a legal necessity to comply with European law. The reasons were complex but the principle was simple – to permit people to continue to carry out necessary control with no added burdens. As with the quarry seasons people only needed to know what species were on the list.

 

However, following two decades of gold-plating the general licences in England are now so complex that they are confusing to the average user.

 

The 48 pages of proposed changes in this consultation would make the terms and conditions even more complex while also making it a legal requirement for users to have read and understood up to ten pages of legal text in each general licence. In essence Natural England is continuing the trend of its predecessors in shifting national legal responsibilities onto licence users.

 

BASC believes in reducing red tape for shooting.

 

The situation today is far removed from 1992 when Ministers assured stakeholders that the introduction of general licences was a legal device but one which would continue to allow necessary control with no added burdens.

The general licences need only to list the species legally affected and the legally permitted methods – all on a single page.

[kent]

Whist I agree with Houseboats comments about changing BASC's perspective on GL and Greys, I am saddened that wildfowlers see (after perhaps many dissapointments) that a takeover of BASC Council is the solution to meet their needs.

I am a rough shooter, gameshooter, pest controller and I have much sympathy with your argument. I would like to see all geese off the general licence and a far better system of Special Licence to deal responsively with the individual needs to control that will arise.

Why only review the GL every decade, why not every year as AGREED returns guide policy?

 

Do not neglect that you have a majority of fellow shooter prepared to respect well reasoned argument and act with you to stop OUR organisation doing the wrong thing.

I would gladly sign any request to review the BASC position on Greys combined with a focus on why they should i.e. Special Licence approvals should be simplified.

To say that issue cannot be raised because it wasnt in the consultation paper is worrying.

So, go ahead, try for an SGM for this issue - you will have my support.

Let us not however reinforce the 'them and us' approach.

If BAC's other members wont roll-up to support this when their wildfowling colleagues have argued so passionately for it, then you need to restart WAGBI - I would join.

You know what there are people out there that are still unhappy with past BASC actions that effected their area of special interest. The current attitude of BASC is bound to do more harm than good and many will be questioning who is next?

[Terry P]

So we have numbers of Greylags under dispute.

We have NE own figures proving that numbers of Canada shot on the foreshore has fallen.(for those that can read)

We have the SL already in place for where numbers are in need of control.

We have at least one farmer that has shown and proved that when a SL was needed it was granted and executed.

We have non wildfowlers agreeing with wildfowlers concerns.

And dispite all the evidence provided(which BASC seemed incapable or unwilling to discover). We still have BASC unwilling to listen or act.

David and Connor I hope you get a bonus for all the tripe you are being forced to write and defend whilst your employers sit in their ivory tower,deaf and blind. Y