Inclusion of the Greylag Goose onto the General License

[panoma1]

There are lots of greylag broods on one of the gravel pits near me in the Lea valley. I guess the Lea Valley Parks Authority will be pricking the eggs next year like the do with the canadas, yet cormorants are allowed to proliferate to the detriment of the fish in the river and pits. One pit has a colony of over 100, destroying the trees with their droppings and ravaging the fish stocks and pushing the Herons out through nest site competition..

 

Because they don't want to be seen as controversial and risk their cosy institutional existence, gold plated pensions and inflated salaries NE/EA as a government quango prefer to listen to benign bunny hugger types and protectionist organisations/charities who are seen by Joe public as conservationists and consequently presumed to be good for the natural world so anything they want (or don't want!) must be right!...........on the other hand shooters are seen as destructive and detrimental to the natural world because they kill birds and animals...........so anything the shooting community suggests/wants is suspicious, is treated with disdain......and seen as self interest.

Edited May 28, 2014 by panoma1

[riptide]

David, Sorry but throwing your dummy out of the pram does not do you personally any favours!!! And in your case it can be seen as worse as you are employed by Basc! If only a very few members complain to you or through you to Basc ,that should not be a reason for you to withdraw from dialogue on this or any other forum ..That you have and even made it seem that just one member has caused you to withdraw is a great shame ,it leads me to wonder if their now might be a cooling of comments from on high as the date is now passed !!!As I am involved in local Drama group I know the phrase Stage managed!!!

 

To all that have not as yet voted for Council members, please do so!!! We need as many wildfowl friendly council members as we can get on BASC council, even if on some issues they all dont vote as we would want them too if we have enough then we will still be able to win our case .May I remind you all that OUR CASE is not just this one issue (Greys and mallards) even though it is hot at moment, their are a few more that are very important to wildfowling as a whole and hell we do want to win them!!!!!!..

 

So do please vote as by not voting you will effectively and possible damaging our sport which is wildfowling!!!

[Kes]

David, Sorry but throwing your dummy out of the pram does not do you personally any favours!!! And in your case it can be seen as worse as you are employed by Basc! If only a very few members complain to you or through you to Basc ,that should not be a reason for you to withdraw from dialogue on this or any other forum ..That you have and even made it seem that just one member has caused you to withdraw is a great shame ,it leads me to wonder if their now might be a cooling of comments from on high as the date is now passed !!!As I am involved in local Drama group I know the phrase Stage managed!!!

 

To all that have not as yet voted for Council members, please do so!!! We need as many wildfowl friendly council members as we can get on BASC council, even if on some issues they all dont vote as we would want them too if we have enough then we will still be able to win our case .May I remind you all that OUR CASE is not just this one issue (Greys and mallards) even though it is hot at moment, their are a few more that are very important to wildfowling as a whole and hell we do want to win them!!!!!!..

 

So do please vote as by not voting you will effectively and possible damaging our sport which is wildfowling!!!

I dont want to start a row here - had enough of that but we need people on Council who are willing to see our sport as shooting but with the special needs and responsibilities of wildfowling. Still more importantly we need people who will actively seek to change the status quo and not just 'take the whip' on issues such as the GL. After all this on the Greylag (one of our finest geese IMHO) the direction and apparent complacency of BASC needs to be changed. Members need to know what to expect from their reps and I havent noticed much outspoken comment seeking change.

Why doesnt one of you guys stand - I'd happily vote for Grandalf / Wimberley for example and others.

[Kes]

Just a thought but how many members on Council? Is it unreasonable to suggest that each Member of Council should take a special interest area (wildfowling/rough/driven etc) and find methods to represent their specific viewpoint at Council meetings and to take to Council issues which are urgent/important to individual aspect of the sport. A focus or interest group would then be formed below that for the Member to attend and get issues straight from the horses mouth as it were.

There is so much that could be done differently. One member could be given a 'portfolio' to increase membership, working directly with staff - this sort of direct relationship would help staff know their members better, break down any suggestion of being 'out of touch etc.Producing 2 reports each year on progress, issues, barriers, successes and so on - these would then convince members that their representatives are actively working to do the things they want and bridge the them and us feeling which I suggest is growing.

[Grandalf]

I dont want to start a row here - had enough of that but we need people on Council who are willing to see our sport as shooting but with the special needs and responsibilities of wildfowling. Still more importantly we need people who will actively seek to change the status quo and not just 'take the whip' on issues such as the GL. After all this on the Greylag (one of our finest geese IMHO) the direction and apparent complacency of BASC needs to be changed. Members need to know what to expect from their reps and I havent noticed much outspoken comment seeking change.

Why doesnt one of you guys stand - I'd happily vote for Grandalf / Wimberley for example and others.

Kes, I am flattered that you have shown confidence in my ability and wish I could stand. Problem is that I am in my mid 70's and have to look after a slightly older wife who is not in the best of health so could not devote the time and effort that would be required in such a position.

In addition to doing various tasks for the Royal British Legion at local and county level I have an everlasting battle with Natural England over the lease of a marsh on the north Suffolk coast that they own. (That will never be easy). So I am pretty busy in my retirement.

However, whoever goes onto the BASC council to represent fowling will get my full support and any assistance and advice that I can offer.

[Kes]

Kes, I am flattered that you have shown confidence in my ability and wish I could stand. Problem is that I am in my mid 70's and have to look after a slightly older wife who is not in the best of health so could not devote the time and effort that would be required in such a position.

In addition to doing various tasks for the Royal British Legion at local and county level I have an everlasting battle with Natural England over the lease of a marsh on the north Suffolk coast that they own. (That will never be easy). So I am pretty busy in my retirement.

However, whoever goes onto the BASC council to represent fowling will get my full support and any assistance and advice that I can offer.

I like the 'cut of your jib', having read quite a few of your posts. I can see why you would find it difficult, timewise.

My best wishes nevertheless to you both.

[-Mongrel-]

David, Sorry but throwing your dummy out of the pram does not do you personally any favours!!! And in your case it can be seen as worse as you are employed by Basc! If only a very few members complain to you or through you to Basc ,that should not be a reason for you to withdraw from dialogue on this or any other forum ..That you have and even made it seem that just one member has caused you to withdraw is a great shame .....

You have GOT to be having a laugh!

 

41 pages this thread has reached, and agree or disagree with what he has had to say, he has been here on just about every page of those 40, either putting information out there, responding to comments and all the while taking constant flack! I'd say he has more than discharged any responsibilities he may morally have, because I don't think BASC employ him to PW forums bitch.

 

Like what he had to say or not, I have to admire the man for his patience and tenacity!

[Conor O'Gorman]

You have GOT to be having a laugh!

 

41 pages this thread has reached, and agree or disagree with what he has had to say, he has been here on just about every page of those 40, either putting information out there, responding to comments and all the while taking constant flack! I'd say he has more than discharged any responsibilities he may morally have, because I don't think BASC employ him to PW forums bitch.

 

Like what he had to say or not, I have to admire the man for his patience and tenacity!

 

I agree, thats uncalled for, play the ball, not the man. There is no expectation on David or indeed anyone else whether staff, committees or council to post on forums. David, and to a far lesser degree myself, have engaged in this issue on this forum because we genuinely wanted to be able to help provide some context but its obviously been a pretty pointless exercise. We are BASC members too, we are not robots. We must all work together even where there are fundamental differences of opinion. We all care for shooting, we just come at it from different perspectives and experience, whether in one's club, joint council or association.

[islandgun]

 

I agree, thats uncalled for, play the ball, not the man. There is no expectation on David or indeed anyone else whether staff, committees or council to post on forums. David, and to a far lesser degree myself, have engaged in this issue on this forum because we genuinely wanted to be able to help provide some context but its obviously been a pretty pointless exercise. We are BASC members too, we are not robots. We must all work together even where there are fundamental differences of opinion. We all care for shooting, we just come at it from different perspectives and experience, whether in one's club, joint council or association.

I still have yet to see one good reason why greylag geese are on a GL and why on earth BASC support it, its clear we are not going to get any answers so yes it is pointless

[Kes]

There is a kind of diplomacy which reduces tensions and calms the troubled soul. You dont have it yet Connor. David is close but the message he has to work with isnt helpful.

JMHO again.

[Grandalf]

Gentlemen,

Can an old fowler request a little restraint in some of the remarks on this forum?

I am strongly against BASC's decision but it was taken by the Council - not David or Conor.

They are having a bad and difficult time trying to justify that decision - but they did not make it.

Whilst we are engaging in this discussion in our leisure time they are doing it as part of their employment.

The last thing we want is for the moderators to pull the plug so that our main point of contact and discussion with BASC ceases.

Just a little easier with some of the phrases being used - We are all Fowling Gentlemen.

____________________________________________________________________

 

I wrote this way back on page 27 of the debate. It is still relevant at the end of the debate.

 

The main question - Why agree to the inclusion of greylags and mallard on the GL has not, in my opinion, been answered by BASC.

We have read much about the how, but not the why. We have pointed out that they are not in existence to represent other groups of interested parties - Only the members of BASC.

They say that's what they did via the democratically elected council - We say they did not listen to the main group affected - Wildfowlers.

Anser2 and many others pointed out to them that the figures they based their decision on were suspect - at the very least. They replied that the figures were the best that exist.

They, the committee, were the only ones who could change the decision and this they refused to do.

 

What is done is done. Only time will tell who was right and who was wrong.

Now it is up to Natural England - I don't have a lot of hope but they could go against their own proposal.

 

David, Conor, - You have taken some flack in defending the, in most of our opinions, indefensible - But you did it with dignity. You earned your paycheques over the last month or so.

 

I will never agree with the decision because I am an old fowler and conservationist - wildfowl are almost sacred to me.

How my future dealings with BASC will pan out I have no idea. My third, of four, membership cards came through the post just yesterday - whether I receive any next year remains to be seen.

What I am very certain of is that my feelings for what grew out of my beloved WAGBI have never been so low.

BASC you have let down the fowling community very badly.

 

Ben Symonds

Edited May 30, 2014 by Grandalf

[panoma1]

Does anyone know which and how many wildlife protectionist bodies/charities such as RSPB, WWT etc. Have responded in support of NE's proposals regarding the inclusion of the greylag and mallard on a GL?

[Penelope]

From what I have read in this thread WWT are opposed.

 

Does anyone know which and how many wildlife protectionist bodies/charities such as RSPB, WWT etc. Have responded in support of NE's proposals regarding the inclusion of the greylag and mallard on a GL?

[islandgun]

Does anyone know which and how many wildlife protectionist bodies/charities such as RSPB, WWT etc. Have responded in support of NE's proposals regarding the inclusion of the greylag and mallard on a GL?

I can't find any mention of Greylag, Mallard and the GL from the RSPB and people i have spoken to in the RSPB have no knowledge either, looks to me like most of the people in charge of the birds fate have colluded together for a reason that best suits themselves, what does p me off is that they will get some "shooters" to carry out their work and wildfowlers will end up being blamed.

[holloway]

I can't find any mention of Greylag, Mallard and the GL from the RSPB and people i have spoken to in the RSPB have no knowledge either, looks to me like most of the people in charge of the birds fate have colluded together for a reason that best suits themselves, what does p me off is that they will get some "shooters" to carry out their work and wildfowlers will end up being blamed.

RSPB are for it and WWT are against it.

[Grandalf]

RSPB are for it and WWT are against it.

Now there's a surprise.

Wouldn't like to be a greylag living on RSPB reserve.

I'd be trying to lengthen my bill and sharpen my talons if I was.

[Barls2-9-12]

RSPB are for it and WWT are against it.

Just wondered how did you find out the RSPB are for it.

[ColinF]

Just wondered how did you find out the RSPB are for it.

 

http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/cfs-file.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-01-57-64/7624.RSPB-licence-consultation-response_5F00_2014_5F00_final.pdf

 

RSPB are against it, see page 8

[Kes]

The rest of their submission is eye watering.

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC's submission is here:

http://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2014/05/BASC-response-English-general-licences-consultation.pdf

[ColinF]

The rest of their submission is eye watering.

 

But not unexpected?

 

A few more responses here:

 

http://www.countryside-alliance.org/ca/file/General_Licences_Consultation_0414_Response_Final.pdf

 

http://www.gwct.org.uk/media/392429/changes-to-class-general-licences.pdf

 

http://www.nationalgamekeepers.org.uk/media/uploads/cat-274/NGO%20Response%20Form%20-%20Gen%20Lics.pdf

[holloway]

 

http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/cfs-file.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-01-57-64/7624.RSPB-licence-consultation-response_5F00_2014_5F00_final.pdf

 

RSPB are against it, see page 8

Sorry my mistake.

[riptide]

Thank you for posting up the RSPB responce ,,has taken a long while to read through their 40 pages of submission !!! .A lot of very interesting points ,a small few in our favour but a lot that will not be of help to us !! Like a lot of us they object to the Greys going on GL for three main reasons .Not easy to distingish between Resident and Migratory ,,Confusion with Whitefronts , only very small regulatory gain (cost ),and they also have looked at the small amount of SLs applyed for and ask why change .!

 

But they on the other hand want to remove the Collared Dove ,Jackdaw and Jay from the GL to SLs !!!!!

 

I think all should read their responce in full as it does show what they would like to see !!!!!!!

[muncher]

Thank you for posting up the RSPB responce ,,has taken a long while to read through their 40 pages of submission !!! .A lot of very interesting points ,a small few in our favour but a lot that will not be of help to us !! Like a lot of us they object to the Greys going on GL for three main reasons .Not easy to distingish between Resident and Migratory ,,Confusion with Whitefronts , only very small regulatory gain (cost ),and they also have looked at the small amount of SLs applyed for and ask why change .!

 

But they on the other hand want to remove the Collared Dove ,Jackdaw and Jay from the GL to SLs !!!!!

 

I think all should read their responce in full as it does show what they would like to see !!!!!!!

Richard I read this and thought the same , what would happen if there ever successful, is that carrion crows would join them as well because you couldn't identify them with any certainty.

[anser2]

There has been very little about this subject in the sporting press , but good to see the editorial of Sporting gun having a brief mention supporting greylags not being placed on the GL.