islandgun Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Anyway, back to the question, what are the other concerns over and above over shooting inland in the Spring and Summer? ta David Its not wanted and in my eyes un-ethical but above all not needed, I do not understand why BASC should be trying so hard to endorse it, I would have expected BASC to fight it.! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Lee, All I am asking people on this forum for is clarification of what their concerns are so I can feed them back and answer questions where possible, you will see I have been doing this on PW for many years... I am not playing games there is no point in me doing so. And thank you for elaborating on your Canada goose issue. islandgun gun, Thank you your message received and understood David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee-kinsman Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Lee, All I am asking people on this forum for is clarification of what their concerns are so I can feed them back and answer questions where possible, you will see I have been doing this on PW for many years... I am not playing games there is no point in me doing so. And thank you for elaborating on your Canada goose issue. islandgun gun, Thank you your message received and understood David where my father lives and where I lived until I married it is what we believe to be an ancestral flight line for geese , mainly pinkfoots and without doubt Canada geese in more recent years using the same flight lines every year the pinks fly at the back of my fathers home and he can call friends in the Humberside district and let them know the geese will be arriving with great accuracy a certain person at Leeds who shoots along this line has been absolutely decimating numbers for the past three years with boasts of 187 birds in one week and even claims of decoying birds into fields , out of season decoying as well may I add people such as that will not give bags returns other than mindless boasting on THL , combing this with the amount of water/united utility workers pricking eggs and the population of Canada geese is spiralling towards being endangered and in another two years or so there will not be many Canada geese left to shoot , a situation the RSPB will be happy with moving the Greylag goose onto the same list will only see the demise of yet another quarry species accessible to the working man still I suppose if I had a PHd and sat at a computer in an office someone may listen a little more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 where my father lives and where I lived until I married it is what we believe to be an ancestral flight line for geese , mainly pinkfoots and without doubt Canada geese in more recent years using the same flight lines every year the pinks fly at the back of my fathers home and he can call friends in the Humberside district and let them know the geese will be arriving with great accuracy a certain person at Leeds who shoots along this line has been absolutely decimating numbers for the past three years with boasts of 187 birds in one week and even claims of decoying birds into fields , out of season decoying as well may I add people such as that will not give bags returns other than mindless boasting on THL , combing this with the amount of water/united utility workers pricking eggs and the population of Canada geese is spiralling towards being endangered and in another two years or so there will not be many Canada geese left to shoot , a situation the RSPB will be happy with moving the Greylag goose onto the same list will only see the demise of yet another quarry species accessible to the working man still I suppose if I had a PHd and sat at a computer in an office someone may listen a little more Let me tell you the last statement is very,very factual and the route of many issues. A new regional head of NE was recruited for one area and didn't even know that migratory wildfowl were shot. In the words of a well known PHD holder and fowler at a meeting last week "things don't too look good for the greylag or Mallard" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Lee, All I am asking people on this forum for is clarification of what their concerns are so I can feed them back and answer questions where possible, you will see I have been doing this on PW for many years... I am not playing games there is no point in me doing so. And thank you for elaborating on your Canada goose issue. islandgun gun, Thank you your message received and understood David Then stop trying to score points and get on with it you are not going to win and are under estimating the proper Wildfowlers resolve and anger at BASC on this one. I hope they get to meet Stanley Duncan and get to explain their actions if there is an after life. At the moment it looks like we will get more support from the RSPB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 I am certainly not trying to score points as you put it, on the contrary I have simply been trying to answer questions on BASC Councils response to the consultation, and have an open discussion on some of the points raised to uncover specific concerns so I may try to address them. This is not scoring points but engaging in an open and frank discussion. So when trying to work with you guys its more than a bit frustrating when I ask confirmation or clarification on a point you have made such as what are your specific concerns, or what do you consider to be long term trends to get no reply. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 David, there are no long term trends for the greylag as its not been passed by NE despite basc recommending its ok to shoot them no matter the season. What people are saying is its not going to be good. It is coming across very much as a battle but perhaps its just an angry defence. Has anybody at HQ bothered to speak with Mark for gaining feedback from the clubs? I know it wasn't done fully in advance which was a big mistake. I for one don't envy your task here, though its a little like mediating an angry and bitter divorce. Please remember the Greylag was hunted out in its lowland form only 100 years ago, it was done then with muzzle loading guns. Today there will be guys out with all the latest gear, decoys and weaponry and we are not talking about a fast reproducing bird they take their own sweet time to become sexually mature and are long lived. if you shot all but one male and one female rabbit on a patch of land you could well have a similar number to that which you first started out with in just two seasons, greys wont fix things anything like as fast. SL is acceptable GL is not they are not just big pigeons so please don't view the numbers likely to be killed as being comparable on population decline season on season and the ability of the birds to come back are far from equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IEH Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Please remember, as I said members of BASC elect the members who represent them, and wildfowlers are very well represented on Council. David, You've made this point a couple of times in this thread. Unless I'm mistaken, the WLC members voted against both proposals for Greylag Geese and Mallard, and hopefully by now you will have come to appreciate that there is overwhelming opposition from those wildfowlers who are active across a number of forums and Facebook sites. If you accept that, please explain to me how the BASC stance is representative of wildfowlers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Kent, At the risk of being accused of point scoring, may I ask please what length of time a species should be monitored over to judge its population trend? Is 10 years not long enough in your view? Mark is in constant contact with clubs, has been to meetings recently and has a meeting with the Wash joint council next week, and I have discussed this face to face with him. I am on this forum for several reasons , but not least of all to engage with members and non members on important matter, ask for feedback, answer questions and so on. Yes sometimes it does feel like people are making personal attacks on me, and making frankly rude comments about BASC, but never the less I keep coming back and keep engaging, the same cannot be said about any other rep from any other shooting organisation... I have never equated geese to pigeons for the record, nor to the very best of my knowledge has anyone at BASC, as you say their longevity and maturity cycle are completely different. Again at the risk of being accused of point scoring, I ask that given since the canada's came onto the GL and all the fears that their population would crash due to over shooting outside of the wildfowling season, which has not happened, why do you think it could or will happen with greylags? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 IEH, I have not seen the minutes of the WLC committee meeting so I honestly do not know. But the elected Council of members is the final arbiter on all policy matters, and as I have said, wildfowling is very well represented on BASC Council. The detail and background is described in a post above. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee-kinsman Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Kent, At the risk of being accused of point scoring, may I ask please what length of time a species should be monitored over to judge its population trend? Is 10 years not long enough in your view? Mark is in constant contact with clubs, has been to meetings recently and has a meeting with the Wash joint council next week, and I have discussed this face to face with him. I am on this forum for several reasons , but not least of all to engage with members and non members on important matter, ask for feedback, answer questions and so on. Yes sometimes it does feel like people are making personal attacks on me, and making frankly rude comments about BASC, but never the less I keep coming back and keep engaging, the same cannot be said about any other rep from any other shooting organisation... I have never equated geese to pigeons for the record, nor to the very best of my knowledge has anyone at BASC, as you say their longevity and maturity cycle are completely different. Again at the risk of being accused of point scoring, I ask that given since the canada's came onto the GL and all the fears that their population would crash due to over shooting outside of the wildfowling season, which has not happened, why do you think it could or will happen with greylags? David you just about sum your position up , looking at figures ! well the birds are almost wiped out here because of a minorities efforts but no notice will be taken , and at the end of the day when both Canada and greylag have gone , what will your response be ? we could only act on the figures laid before BASC stole from us WAGBI and just sits at a desk creating jobs for the boys to ride around in company cars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfolio Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 (edited) I'd like to eat some of the carrots (but perhaps not the funny mushrooms) that lee-kinsman clearly chows down on. To be able to identify individual geese, out the many tens of thousands that reside/migrate across the UK, from blurry photos is quite staggering. l-k I have sympathy with the assertion that Greylags don't need to go on the general licence. However, for you to attempt to say that one man has single handedly killed all the members of a flock travelling over the Pennines is patently ridiculous and, serves only to undermine your original point. If you have a problem with the fella then fair enough but, at least try to make the link between two clearly unrelated issues at least vaguely tenuous. Grind that axe much more and, all you'll have left is the handle. Edited May 2, 2014 by Penfolio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artschool Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 I'd like to eat some of the carrots (but perhaps not the funny mushrooms) that lee-kinsman clearly chows down on. To be able to identify individual geese, out the many tens of thousands that reside/migrate across the UK, from blurry photos is quite staggering. l-k I have sympathy with the assertion that Greylags don't need to go on the general licence. However, for you to attempt to say that one man has single handedly killed all the members of a flock travelling over the Pennines is patently ridiculous and, serves only to undermine your original point. If you have a problem with the fella then fair enough but, at least try to make the link between two clearly unrelated issues at least vaguely tenuous. Grind that axe much more and, all you'll have left is the handle. finally a sensible voice, i was beginning to wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 I'm still waiting for someone to answer Davids question, 'I ask that given since the canada's came onto the GL and all the fears that their population would crash due to over shooting outside of the wildfowling season, which has not happened, why do you think it could or will happen with greylags? I asked the question a few pages ago as to what happened to the canada goose population when it went on the GL, as far as I can ascertain it's actually still increasing and consistently has. Lee may well have lost his geese for whatever reason, but that's hardly the national picture is it? I've lost all my pigeons at the moment, but don't believe they've been shot into oblivion nationwide! So, why would the greylag be at any more risk than the canada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holloway Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 I'm still waiting for someone to answer Davids question, 'I ask that given since the canada's came onto the GL and all the fears that their population would crash due to over shooting outside of the wildfowling season, which has not happened, why do you think it could or will happen with greylags? I asked the question a few pages ago as to what happened to the canada goose population when it went on the GL, as far as I can ascertain it's actually still increasing and consistently has. Lee may well have lost his geese for whatever reason, but that's hardly the national picture is it? I've lost all my pigeons at the moment, but don't believe they've been shot into oblivion nationwide! So, why would the greylag be at any more risk than the canada? Canada numbers are down in many areas ,on our marsh we used to see 2000+ regularly ,now lucky to see 200 ,most clubs are saying the same sort of thing,Of course this goes against the numbers that BASC are quoting.but as you know statistics can be manipulated to suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 (edited) Theres lies damn lies and statistics, who's figures are the canada's count ? why should a either be at risk ? why are BASC so keen to put greylag on a GL, of all people any farmer/ landowner affected by geese can apply for a licence, as many do without a problem, who decides when a spp should be put on a GL and with who's authority Edited May 2, 2014 by islandgun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 The bag returns showing an increase in canadas taken by wildfowlers since they went on GL are from 100 wildfowling clubs around the UK. To suggest that I or BASC are manipulating figures is totally incorrect. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 The British Trust for Ornithology provide in-depth figures for most British birds. Below are links for the species of interest. Some fascinating insights. Canada goose breeding/winter distribution and abundance maps 1968-2011 Canada goose population trend 1980-2012 Greylag goose breeding/winter distribution and abundance maps 1968-2011 Greylag goose population trend 1992-2012 Greylag goose feature - WAGBI reintroduction effort mentioned Mallard breeding/winter distribution and abundance maps 1968-2011 Mallard population trend 1966-2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 maybe people/ clubs are getting better at counting or shooting, why would BASC manipulate figures? can you please explain why BASC want to put Greylag and Mallard on a GL, how this benefits anyone, I'm not having a go at you David I don't know you and reckon your trying to uphold BASC stance on this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 islandgun, here is the info and background: Background There is a proposal to add feral greylag geese and mallard to general licences which deal with the specific problems of crop protection and the preservation of public health and safety. Anyone controlling these birds must comply fully with the terms of the relevant general licences and must have the full permission of the land owner or occupier. BASC’s position BASC supports the proposal to add greylag goose to general licence GL04 to prevent serious agricultural damage or disease as it applies to breeding feral greylag geese in England. BASC recognises the potential for these birds to cause serious crop damage. BASC seeks confirmation that the breeding population of greylag geese will continue to be counted annually if this proposed change is made. BASC supports the proposal to add greylag goose and mallard to the general licence GL05 to preserve public health and safety as it applies to breeding feral greylag geese and mallard in England. Permitted control methods would be limited to taking, damaging or destroying greylag geese and mallard nests or to take or destroy their eggs. BASC recognises the potential for these birds to impact on public health and safety. BASC seeks confirmation that the breeding populations of greylag geese and mallard will continue to be counted annually if this proposed change is made. Context to BASC’s position In determining its position, BASC Council drew on feedback from members, the Wildfowling Liaison Committee and the Game shooting and Gamekeeping Committee and considered the following: • The proposals reflect Government’s wish to cut bureaucracy as outlined in the Red Tape Challenge. We are generally in favour of a reduction in bureaucracy relating to shooting and land management. • There is already licensed control of greylags and mallard taking place. • For greylag geese in the period from 2005-2011 there were 349 licences issued to destroy up to 90,448 eggs and 457 licences to shoot or kill by injection 15,647 birds. Most of these licences were to prevent serious damage to crops or to protect air safety. • For mallard in the period from 2005-2011 there were 78 licences issued to destroy up to 32,440 eggs and 30 licences to shoot or kill by injection 2,471 birds. Most of these licences were to protect public health and air safety. • BASC does not believe that greylag geese or mallard should be viewed as pests and understands that these proposals are not about reducing the population, but about people being able to respond quickly to prevent serious problems occurring. • The population of breeding greylag geese has increased by 179% in the last 20 years and the breeding mallard population has increased by 20% in the same time period. Because control will take place during the breeding season migratory birds will not be affected. BASC is also seeking confirmation that the breeding populations of greylag geese and mallard will continue to be counted annually if the proposed changes to the relevant licences are made. • Woodpigeon can cause serious agricultural damage; and as a responsible organisation BASC needs to recognise the damage that feral greylag geese can cause to crops and the resultant impact on the farming community. • Fears for the Canada goose population were also expressed by some members ahead of that species' addition to several general licenses in England and in Wales. Those fears have not been realised, with populations continuing to grow and bag returns increasing on the foreshore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Anyone who knows Lake Windermere well will know the effect of Canada Culling over the last few years. David, There are people far more qualified to take that wild guess than me. at the end of the day that is all it is. A bad breeding year and heavy local persecution might finish an area really quick, yet heavy shooting and good recruitment might not be so bad. The Special Licence takes this into account Open Licence does not and cannot, we know not how many are shot, when they are shot were they are shot there are no returns to collate against local stocks. This is not management, it not conservation. Anser2 has illustrated counts clearly to you with the estimated increase in pinks scientifically calculated to 100,000 - if you had been under a proper flight on some of the top spots you will realise the inaccuracy of the science in that. If you want firm answers to such a thing I am sure some fool will give you a response but it will be wrong. I very much subscribe to don't mess too deeply with that which you do not fully understand. I shouldn't shoot deer without an annual count and I certainly shouldn't shoot Roe does after x-mas either another thing that the great and good within BASC thought was ok I do want to know what the point of the WLC is within BASC if they are not listened to, we have some excellent brains out there in the world of wildfowling the fact that someone seeking election thinks that the fact that they occasionally sit on a flight pond for a few hours, has shot at semi tame driven mallard or shot a goose on his brother in laws lake one day qualifies them as being a wildfowler, perhaps if wildfowlers stick with BASC we might have a closer look at how the candidates might campaign for their seats I do know one chap used a much younger picture of himself in one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Kent, Not trying to pass the buck as it were but may I suggest that you contact the Chairman of the WLC and for that matter the Chairman of Council who will be able to give you chapter and verse of what the WLC does and what it delivers for wildfowling and wildfowlers? They are your representatives after all. If you want me to put you in touch just let me know via PM or email at david.ilsley@basc.org.uk Its important that willing members put themselves forward for election to Council and that members play their part by taking part in the voting process, after all its our association, and the Council members we elect are the ones that make the policy decisions, so its very much in our interest to play an active role in who is elected. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 For greylag geese in the period from 2005-2011 there were 349 licences issued to destroy up to 90,448 eggs and 457 licences to shoot or kill by injection 15,647 birds. Most of these licences were to prevent serious damage to crops or to protect air safety. • For mallard in the period from 2005-2011 there were 78 licences issued to destroy up to 32,440 eggs and 30 licences to shoot or kill by injection 2,471 birds. Most of these licences were to protect public health and air safety. Will persons please remember the total number of licences are to be divided by the years, in the case of Mallard 78 licences / six years is an average of 13 licences issued a year were a need has been recognised. For this the Mallard gets a place on General Licence. Do we really need to discuss this to know that this is not the right thing to do. Red tape challenge? government savings? well we might see the start of some money saving come the election for MEPs in May. Are BASC following the Government on its suicidal path to oblivion though not listening or understanding what "they" want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Kent, Not trying to pass the buck as it were but may I suggest that you contact the Chairman of the WLC and for that matter the Chairman of Council who will be able to give you chapter and verse of what the WLC does and what it delivers for wildfowling and wildfowlers? They are your representatives after all. If you want me to put you in touch just let me know via PM or email at david.ilsley@basc.org.uk Its important that willing members put themselves forward for election to Council and that members play their part by taking part in the voting process, after all its our association, and the Council members we elect are the ones that make the policy decisions, so its very much in our interest to play an active role in who is elected. David My point was if they recommended no why say yes at council ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 thanks for the link conor, I see both spp are increasing, populations are dynamic and will expand given the right habitat they will also decrease or stabilise , but I still fail to understand the need for a GL and the stance of BASC actively encouraging it, localised control and in season shooting should be enough to ensure the status quo without open warfare, which to me will give antis yet more reason to complain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.