What training to do?

[mrmints]

I apologise because I feel I am bombarding this forum with questions at the moment.

 

I know my dog is very young (just 6 months) but I feel quite restricted in what training I can do. She isn't interested in retrieving, especially not when we're out of the garden. I've read a few books and watched (about six times) David Lisetts dog training videos. Particularly in the video, the majority (95%?!) of the training is focused on the dog retrieving, whether marked or dropped tennis balls etc. With Lucy not having the interest his dogs do, I can only really work on heel, come back and sit/stay. Am I missing any other bits I could/should be doing with her? I feel like if she loved retrieving, I could be doing so much more stimulating stuff with her.

 

Anyone else felt like this?

 

Chris

Edited April 30, 2014 by mrmints

[cocker boy]

Concentrate on the things the dog doesn't do well not the things it does do well.

[kent]

Concentrate on the things the dog doesn't do well not the things it does do well.

That's good advice that we all sometimes struggle to follow with most things in life

[scutt]

At 6 months old you have plenty of time to get the pup interested in picking stuff up don't push the RETRIEVING get the pup to run out and pick things up in its mouth find out what it likes to play with ball sock something stinky owt to get it into a playful mood and then just play ! until you and the dog have gained a bit of trust.

[Actionpigeons]

Do not apologise that is just what the section is all about.

What breed of dog is it?

[The Essex Hunter]

I am on my first working dog and fell foul of comparing my efforts on how accomplished trainers who have been doing it years made it look easy.

As I have found it takes a long time to achieve one part then adding something else only detracts for the previous bit, so install one part at a time.

I was chatting to a field trial trainer who gave me some advice on the stop whistle...." If you don't think he will stop on the whistle then don't blow it"

This was very true this morning as the last couple of days my pup has been moving out further than I was happy with so I got him back and kept him very close the rest of the walk.

I taught scuba diving for a long time and you can read as many books as you like, however you cant drown in the class room ( only of boredom )

It is so easy to want to do things quickly and I have been guilty of that with my pup, what I have learnt ( I have been told this...It is a puppy! Not a trained gun dog)

Chip is 10 months and the will full part is creeping through which today was hard work, so this afternoon I applied a tip I was given and what was going to be a battle of wills ended up in a good session for me...He would have been quite happy to run around like a mad thing poking in ditches sniffing every thing in sight and chasing butterflies, however sitting out at 20 yards watching me throw one dummy over his head and one to his right then send him out to retrieve one worked well.

 

TEH

[fenboy]

I would say if the dog is not interested in retrieving then you need to get it interested , I am assuming it is a spaniel ?.

Find something that excites it , have you tried a rabbit fur ball etc ?

 

Is the dog motivated by food ? if so try using it for a reward for a retrieve , it may cause issue with the dog spitting the dummy when it gets back but getting it to pick the dummy and bring it to you is more important .

 

Six months is very young and there will be a lot of trial and error .

 

Is the dog mad on hunting ? if so stop it hunting until its retrieving !

[cocker boy]

All the basic stuff is tedious and boring for you and the dog. That is why most people move on to the exciting stuff far too quickly. That is why the VAST MAJORITY of dogs on shoot are poorly trained.

[Bazooka]

I am on my first working dog and fell foul of comparing my efforts on how accomplished trainers who have been doing it years made it look easy.

As I have found it takes a long time to achieve one part then adding something else only detracts for the previous bit, so install one part at a time.

I was chatting to a field trial trainer who gave me some advice on the stop whistle...." If you don't think he will stop on the whistle then don't blow it"

This was very true this morning as the last couple of days my pup has been moving out further than I was happy with so I got him back and kept him very close the rest of the walk.

I taught scuba diving for a long time and you can read as many books as you like, however you cant drown in the class room ( only of boredom )

It is so easy to want to do things quickly and I have been guilty of that with my pup, what I have learnt ( I have been told this...It is a puppy! Not a trained gun dog)

Chip is 10 months and the will full part is creeping through which today was hard work, so this afternoon I applied a tip I was given and what was going to be a battle of wills ended up in a good session for me...He would have been quite happy to run around like a mad thing poking in ditches sniffing every thing in sight and chasing butterflies, however sitting out at 20 yards watching me throw one dummy over his head and one to his right then send him out to retrieve one worked well.

 

TEH

True. The only thing is,if you leave the classroom without enough knowledge and understanding, you will soon find yourself in trouble. The very basics have got to be installed in your brain regarding starting off with a dog.I would suggest that a dog that refuses to pick up and return in the owners direction with something, has been either trained by someone that didn't enter the classroom, arrived late, or simply took little notice of their teacher , i.e books, DVD's and the like. The other possibility is that the owner/trainer, had little understanding of what it was he was aiming to achieve and the reasons for needing to achieve it.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Bazooka

[Bazooka]

I apologise because I feel I am bombarding this forum with questions at the moment.

 

I know my dog is very young (just 6 months) but I feel quite restricted in what training I can do. She isn't interested in retrieving, especially not when we're out of the garden. I've read a few books and watched (about six times) David Lisetts dog training videos. Particularly in the video, the majority (95%?!) of the training is focused on the dog retrieving, whether marked or dropped tennis balls etc. With Lucy not having the interest his dogs do, I can only really work on heel, come back and sit/stay. Am I missing any other bits I could/should be doing with her? I feel like if she loved retrieving, I could be doing so much more stimulating stuff with her.

 

Anyone else felt like this?

 

Chris

Chris,

 

Can you explain exactly what it is you are doing regarding retrieves and what it is the dog does please?

[ditchman]

find it strange that a dog is not having any interest in retreiving at 6 mths !......are there any play dummies/balls left about or rubber chewwies etc ??

[mrmints]

Thanks so much for all the responses.

 

Walks consist of letting her run about off the lead in the various parks near my house, practicing recall and sitting on the stop whistle, and stopping at distance. (On another note, her grass eating is making this quite frustrating! When she stops, she lies down and munches!! Rarely does she stop and sit looking at me!)

 

Yes, she is an ESS. One retrieve with Lucy is usually successful in the garden, she will run out, pick it up and run back in my direction. I usually have to put an arm out to steer her towards me. She then usually drops the sock (the most successful item) or tries to chew it. One is about the limit of it though, after one, she would rather sniff around the garden. I've had some lessons with Alun Willis who recommended taking the toy off her straight away, the moment she gets back to me, but David Lissets words ring in my ears when I do. He said that the last thing he was going to do was take the item off the dog straight away.

 

Out on walks I can't get a single retrieve from her. She would much rather run around sniffing and eating grass (always fairly close, she isn't yet a runner!). I don't really know if what she is doing constitutes hunting. The only way I could get her to stop would be to keep her on the lead the entire walk.

 

I do leave a chewy kong in her kennel most of the time. She was a cronic howler and a kong with some peanut butter and kibble seems to have stopped it.

 

Once again, very much appreciating the input.

[fenboy]

I am no expert but I think you are trying to achieve too much too soon .

 

I would keep the dog on the lead , as I mentioned earlier stop her hunting until she will retrieve , you really should have no issue with training a spaniel to hunt .

 

If she is distracted by eating grass etc take her where there is none , get her excited for a retrieve , bounce a ball about wave it about do your best squeeky voice impression !, once you see she is excited then throw the ball , do not worry about her waiting for you to send her for it let her run in and chase it , at 6 months it should all be a game nothing serious.

 

Have you made the mistake of throwing a retrieve then using the stop whistle when she is on her way out ?

[scotslad]

I see u have already had a lesson but group training can be quite good too as u see everyones elses dogs and all te problems they have (so its not jist u) and hopefully learn from there problems too, so if or when u have the same problem hopefully u'll have an idea.

Sometimes good to see dogs that are not these perfect dogs in the video's

 

Some dogs are just not natural retrievers, no matter wot the breed or wot u try. Just got to keep trying different things or sometimes it will just all 'click' for no apparent reason (or sometimes finding that 'special' dummy)

Bouncing/rolling a tennis ball down a slight slope/hill should get most dogs going, but never worked for my GWP

 

Davy knows his stuff and he does a LOT of retrieving with his dogs and says u can never do too much, whereas a lot of the older books/older school of thought always said only to do a few and pick 70% by hand etc.

Loads of different ways of doing things,most aren't right or wrong, while i agree with the don't take it off pup to early camp, possibly slightly different when this trainer has seen the dog in flesh, possibly he thinks taking of it early is going to stop another bad habitit forming?

 

Also like fen boy said take ur dog somewhere with no distractions, even a car park etc and do some concentration or retriving exercises there, not seen davy's dvd but he does a lot of his basic puppy play training in the car park to side of his house then moving onto the short grass lawn and then moves back to tarmad for nasic direction work

[Bazooka]

My guess would be you might have been too demanding regarding the delivery in the early days which takes the fun out of it a bit for a pup.It's likely to be you and the way you have interacted in the early days that has caused the problem. Unlike most of the other posters, I think a dog should be going out to a retrieve whenever an item is thrown and heading back in your direction with a bit of encouragement, aided maybe by the return whistle if you have that solid.The delivery is not important in the early months but keeping the retrieves short,sweet and few and far between is, with a very young pup, especially one showing little interest in retrieving to begin with.It's all well and good one particular trainer with one particular line of dogs doing things one way but different lines sometimes have their own quirky behaviours that need a different approach and more thought. Go and see a respected spaniel trainer who will be able to steer you in the right direction.

[mrmints]

I haven't made the mistake of trying to stop her on the whistle and I've never tried to steady her. I have once lost my patience and forced her to hold the ball (whilst being encouraging) for an extended period (30 seconds or so, before giving her the "dead" command. But this wasn't before the problem started. Poor judgement on my behalf, I know I should have given up, taken her home and had a cup of tea, but I didn't. I know I should be play training with her, but short of retrieving, there isn't much fun training that I can think of to do with a pup! Hence, we're doing the slightly more serious training of stop and sit etc.

 

I did look into group lessons Scotslad, but with my work and family commitments, I struggle to commit to long term pre arranged dates. I spoke to Alan (not Alun) and he is going to bring his dogs out next time and see if we can get Lucy jealous. The reason he wanted me to take the ball away quickly was because she was dropping it so quickly.

 

Bazooka, I thought I had the recall whistle pretty solid, but another puppy out playing last night showed me I still have work to do in that regard! She was 6ft away from me having run back about 40ft when she thought, "nah, I'd rather go and play!". When she came back I held her firmly, put her on the lead without saying anything and took her home (we were heading that way any way). I guess some people might think that even doing that was too much for a puppy, but by my logic, she knows what a return whistle means and chose not to do it.

 

It's a minefield and I am not as patient as I need to be. As she is my first gun dog, I think my expectations are too high. It's so easy sitting here and realising/stating that I expect to much, but so difficult when I'm out with her and she won't do what she has previously done!! I think I best save up for some residential training!!!

Edited May 1, 2014 by mrmints

[fenboy]

Dont lose heart with it.

 

Yes you are expecting too much , I can tell you from experience that dog training is almost always one step forward two steps back at times .

 

Things generally start off great , the pup is young and it thinks you are god , as they get a bit older they start to realise that your not and that actually they can have more fun doing as they please and they will start to push the boundaries.

 

It sounds like you are not that patient and if your getting wound up you are most probably giving off signals that means the dog is not keen to come back to you .

 

Other than recall I would lay off the training for a couple of months , the dog really is too young for what you are trying to achieve it is at a age where play is more important than training.

 

With regards to the recall only attempt it if you know its likely to work , if she is sniffing a scent wait until she has her head up and you have her attention first , lots of praise and a treat on recall will help , you could even use all her daily food allowance as reward for recall.

 

Its not a race to train the dog and you always need to go at the dogs pace not your own targets another lesson I have personally learned , my Lab is now 14 months and is nothing like fully trained .

[Bazooka]

I haven't made the mistake of trying to stop her on the whistle and I've never tried to steady her. I have once lost my patience and forced her to hold the ball (whilst being encouraging) for an extended period (30 seconds or so, before giving her the "dead" command. But this wasn't before the problem started. Poor judgement on my behalf, I know I should have given up, taken her home and had a cup of tea, but I didn't. I know I should be play training with her, but short of retrieving, there isn't much fun training that I can think of to do with a pup! Hence, we're doing the slightly more serious training of stop and sit etc.

 

I did look into group lessons Scotslad, but with my work and family commitments, I struggle to commit to long term pre arranged dates. I spoke to Alan (not Alun) and he is going to bring his dogs out next time and see if we can get Lucy jealous. The reason he wanted me to take the ball away quickly was because she was dropping it so quickly.

 

Bazooka, I thought I had the recall whistle pretty solid, but another puppy out playing last night showed me I still have work to do in that regard! She was 6ft away from me having run back about 40ft when she thought, "nah, I'd rather go and play!". When she came back I held her firmly, put her on the lead without saying anything and took her home (we were heading that way any way). I guess some people might think that even doing that was too much for a puppy, but by my logic, she knows what a return whistle means and chose not to do it.

 

It's a minefield and I am not as patient as I need to be. As she is my first gun dog, I think my expectations are too high. It's so easy sitting here and realising/stating that I expect to much, but so difficult when I'm out with her and she won't do what she has previously done!! I think I best save up for some residential training!!!

 

And within a week of the dog returning to you, it will be back to square one.The problem is you. We've all been there but handing the dog over to someone else for a quick fix is not the answer. Finding someone that can see you and your training method is the answer. I get the feeling you will still be asking the same questions in another six months unless you find someone experienced enough to be able to advise and train YOU to train your dog.

[Fal]

I have found training my first gun dog quite an experience!

 

I think as long as you keep in your mind that no two dogs are the same and that you should never compare your to a dog of a similar age, I think you will not be as worried about the stage he's at for his age. If that makes sense!

 

When I first started training mine I was obsessed with comparing it to others, when in reality that's the least helpful thing I could have done.

 

The help you will get from people on here that know a lot more will be invaluable, I am very grateful of the help and reassurance I have received from members here. It may be worth getting a video up and showing the members what the dog is doing exactly, just an idea?

 

 

I found that if my dog was messing about with a retrieve, turning my back to him then walking or sometimes running in the other direction made him come bounding to me, then at the last min, turning around and more or less grabbing the dummy out of his mouth followed by HEAPS of praise. This helped me, but may not help at all with you. Stick with it, don't lose your patience or let him/her see you wound up.

 

[mrmints]

I am having lessons with Alan Willis. I guess he isn't a David Lissett level instructor (in terms of PR and marketing anyway), but he seems to have won a few things with his dogs and is a FT judge. Lucy (annoyingly!) usually behaves impeccably when we have lessons and I couldn't be happier and she has even done a retrieve or two, but even with Alan, very quickly looses interest. I know this must be something that I'm doing wrong, because the location is just as interesting and grassy.

 

Thinking aloud here, it is quite possible that the 10-15mins walk to the field to train chatting quietly to Alan who is a top bloke puts me in a good frame of mind. Monday to Friday, I've either just gotten up, cleaned out the poo, banged my head on the kennel, worrying about the days work or I've just got home from a day at work, fed and bathed the baby, banged my head on the kennel and thinking about all the work I didn't get done that day. From what I've read, maybe the dog knows I'm faking a stress free demeanour.

[Fal]

I am having lessons with Alan Willis. I guess he isn't a David Lissett level instructor (in terms of PR and marketing anyway), but he seems to have won a few things with his dogs and is a FT judge. Lucy (annoyingly!) usually behaves impeccably when we have lessons and I couldn't be happier and she has even done a retrieve or two, but even with Alan, very quickly looses interest. I know this must be something that I'm doing wrong, because the location is just as interesting and grassy.

 

Thinking aloud here, it is quite possible that the 10-15mins walk to the field to train chatting quietly to Alan who is a top bloke puts me in a good frame of mind. Monday to Friday, I've either just gotten up, cleaned out the poo, banged my head on the kennel, worrying about the days work or I've just got home from a day at work, fed and bathed the baby, banged my head on the kennel and thinking about all the work I didn't get done that day. From what I've read, maybe the dog knows I'm faking a stress free demeanour.

 

My dog can 100% tell when I am not in the mood for training or I am half hearted about it. If you are having a bad day, or keep hitting your head on the kennel I would seriously not bother doing a session with her, it's better not to have a session that you know will be bad or you don't really have the head/heart for than no session at all.

 

Having a day off here and there won't do any harm I personally don't think. It is so frustrating, it was driving me insane. She is still very young, I am sure you will get there. Rather than doing a kind of formal training session where she knows what is coming, maybe try and do some sly retreives when she is out on a walk, let her get excited, tease her with a dummy or tennis ball until she's jumping at you to throw it, she may do it without even thinking. I'm no expert, far from it, but that would be something I would try. I would even go to the extent of throwing the ball/dummy and racing to it myself to retrieve it, to try and create a game that she may like.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Fal

[scotslad]

I wouldnae worry to much, some dogs may just not be mad keen retrievers and it may be nothing u've done. Usually most come right in the end esp when they switch on to proper working/shooting.

 

I wouldnae worry about ur trainer, if u like him, ur dog likes and responds to him and like the way he trains ur dog stick with him,

There is plenty of very good trainers out there, and Davy is right up there with them but he does have a lot of backing where he is that most others don't have.

Davy usually encourages people to see as many different trainers as possible as no one knows it all and u wil always learn slightly different things.

Althou possibly more for slightly more expereinced trainers, as if ur just starting it may confuse both u and the dog until u get ur head round everything

 

Just remember 30 odd years ago most dogs would have been left in the kennel until a year old before any training started, while things have moved on don't worry too much just enjoy playing/walking with it.

 

And if u've had a hard day at the office and not in the mood just walk ur dog and don't even try to train it.

Just dinae worry sure it will come right esp now ur gettin 1-1 lessons, well worth the investment.

 

While most of the advice on here is pretty good i would rather follow advice given by someone who can actually see the dog and knows wot it is doing, general textbook advice will work for most dogs but every so often u might need to do something different to overcome a problem and then go back to the textbook again once u have solved it

 

Good luck with it but sure it will come right sometime

[Bazooka]

I am having lessons with Alan Willis. I guess he isn't a David Lissett level instructor (in terms of PR and marketing anyway), but he seems to have won a few things with his dogs and is a FT judge. Lucy (annoyingly!) usually behaves impeccably when we have lessons and I couldn't be happier and she has even done a retrieve or two, but even with Alan, very quickly looses interest. I know this must be something that I'm doing wrong, because the location is just as interesting and grassy.

 

Thinking aloud here, it is quite possible that the 10-15mins walk to the field to train chatting quietly to Alan who is a top bloke puts me in a good frame of mind. Monday to Friday, I've either just gotten up, cleaned out the poo, banged my head on the kennel, worrying about the days work or I've just got home from a day at work, fed and bathed the baby, banged my head on the kennel and thinking about all the work I didn't get done that day. From what I've read, maybe the dog knows I'm faking a stress free demeanour.

This, again, shows you have a complete lack of understanding and experience with regards to training a dog.

If you expect quick fixes with trainers, think again. The dog has built up a way of behaving over six months with you.If you think for a moment she will behave in a totally different manner regarding retrieves with someone else, no matter how good a trainer they are, you are seriouly on another planet. Get some help for you first then go about retraining the dog from scratch with an experienced trainer.

[Bazooka]

I wouldnae worry to much, some dogs may just not be mad keen retrievers and it may be nothing u've done. Usually most come right in the end esp when they switch on to proper working/shooting.

 

I wouldnae worry about ur trainer, if u like him, ur dog likes and responds to him and like the way he trains ur dog stick with him,

There is plenty of very good trainers out there, and Davy is right up there with them but he does have a lot of backing where he is that most others don't have.

Davy usually encourages people to see as many different trainers as possible as no one knows it all and u wil always learn slightly different things.

Althou possibly more for slightly more expereinced trainers, as if ur just starting it may confuse both u and the dog until u get ur head round everything

 

Just remember 30 odd years ago most dogs would have been left in the kennel until a year old before any training started, while things have moved on don't worry too much just enjoy playing/walking with it.

 

And if u've had a hard day at the office and not in the mood just walk ur dog and don't even try to train it.

Just dinae worry sure it will come right esp now ur gettin 1-1 lessons, well worth the investment.

 

While most of the advice on here is pretty good i would rather follow advice given by someone who can actually see the dog and knows wot it is doing, general textbook advice will work for most dogs but every so often u might need to do something different to overcome a problem and then go back to the textbook again once u have solved it

 

Good luck with it but sure it will come right sometime

And even after being left in a kennel for a year this dog would have come out to be trained by the poster and ended up in exactly the same position in 6 months time. This is not a problem with the dog being too young.It's a lack of understanding on the owners part.

[scotslad]

I think ur being slightly harsh there, some dogs are just not as natural as others at some things, yes it could have been caused by the OP but with out actually seeing the dog or knowing exactly wot it is doing hard to say exactly wot wot has caused it, may just be a phase

 

Is that not exactly wot he is doing by going to get 1-1 lessons!!

 

If in 4-5 months time ur dog is still not retrieving there is various other ways to train it but that is way down the line, sure ur trainer will sort u out nae bother