fenboy Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 And even after being left in a kennel for a year this dog would have come out to be trained by the poster and ended up in exactly the same position in 6 months time. This is not a problem with the dog being too young.It's a lack of understanding on the owners part. I am sure his post was asking for some advice , you seem keener to use him as a whipping horse for all his dogs problems. Experience has to be gained , its gained by doing things both right and wrong , making mistakes is all part of the learning curve . At least he has some understanding of why things may not be working so now its a case of learning from that . One to one training is the way forward , it sounds like you are happy with your trainer so stick with him and my advice is listen to him and only him , ignore all advice you have got on here including my own , again I can tell you from experience that having loads of different people giving you loads of different advice will only serve to both confuse you and have you chopping and changing training methods. The trainer will train both you and the dog which is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 I am sure his post was asking for some advice , you seem keener to use him as a whipping horse for all his dogs problems. Experience has to be gained , its gained by doing things both right and wrong , making mistakes is all part of the learning curve . At least he has some understanding of why things may not be working so now its a case of learning from that . One to one training is the way forward , it sounds like you are happy with your trainer so stick with him and my advice is listen to him and only him , ignore all advice you have got on here including my own , again I can tell you from experience that having loads of different people giving you loads of different advice will only serve to both confuse you and have you chopping and changing training methods. The trainer will train both you and the dog which is important. Agreed on all of the above. My only concern is that it sounds from most that they think the dog is at fault in some way. The dog is only doing what it has learned from the owner.The owner is being made to believe on here that the dog is the problem. Only being honest with him and him being honest with himself will help him and the dog move forward.His trainer is an experienced bloke so hopefully he will have them both on track soon.His need to keep asking questions to forum members should end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker boy Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Find the best trainer available and stick with them. Not one of the best spaniel trainers post on these forums. Most people that post will only be slightly ahead of you with training experience. Everyone can be an expert on the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmints Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 I haven't read any of these posts and thought the poster thinks the dog is at fault. As suggested by my trainer, she is quite possibly not a keen retriever. Some are some aren't, but it's something that hopefully I will be able to bring out of her. I've only had her two months, and I very much doubt she had any training at all before I came along, let alone retrieving training. Unfortunately Bazooka, I'm probably going to keep asking questions despite continuing my training with Alan and although I appreciate everyone's input, nobody has to. Thanks for all the useful posts guys. My plan is to try and focus on my mind state with Lucy for a while and just try and get her having fun. I have another lesson in about a months time and we'll see where we are then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Clearly you have made some mistakes , as no one can see you with the dog they are going to make assumptions . It is a fact spaniels and particularly cockers are not always the keenest retrievers and this is usually due to their preference to hunt. I suppose few people will blame the dog as to be honest it is very rare its the dog and not the handler , yes some dogs are difficult but it is down to the handler to break things down and decide whats wrong and how he is going to make it right, lots can go wrong with a difficult dog and a inexperienced trainer, its a learning curve for the both of you . Its all very well asking lots of questions on here but the more answers you get the more you have to decide what to listen to and what to ignore , as cocker boy says you have no idea of the standard of the people giving the advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmints Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) Yes, that's a very good point. However, my post is specifically a search for ideas for training with Lucy beyond sit/heel/recall because she isn't so keen on retrieving. Retrieving has become the focus of the subsequent replies and it's all really useful information. No one has given any stupid advice like chuck balls all day until it picks up on what you want it to do, but it has given me lots of ideas of what I can try. It doesn't mean I will try everything, or that I will persist with things after I've tried them a couple of times if they don't seem to work. It was just the type of discussion I wanted from my OP. If anyone can help me make sit/recall fun (not only impatient, but lacking in creativity) or has any other non retrieve training ideas, that would be great too! Its all very well asking lots of questions on here but the more answers you get the more you have to decide what to listen to and what to ignore , as cocker boy says you have no idea of the standard of the people giving the advice. Edited May 1, 2014 by mrmints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Find the best trainer available and stick with them. Not one of the best spaniel trainers post on these forums. Most people that post will only be slightly ahead of you with training experience. Everyone can be an expert on the internet. If you are correct on the first point, why would someone need to be one of the top spaniel trainers to help someone with a retrieving problem? Be it dogs fault or owners fault? Secondly, what makes you think the rest of folk on here are only slightly ahead of the orig poster regards training gundogs? Yes, that's a very good point. However, my post is specifically a search for ideas for training with Lucy. Retrieving has become the focus of the subsequent replies and it's all really useful information. No one has given any stupid advice like chuck balls all day until it picks up on what you want it to do, but it has given me lots of ideas of what I can try. It doesn't mean I will try everything, or that I will persist with things after I've tried them a couple of times if they don't seem to work. It was just the type of discussion I wanted from my OP. If anyone can help me make sit/recall fun (not only impatient, but lacking in creativity) that would be great too! wind up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmints Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 wind up. ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Yes, that's a very good point. However, my post is specifically a search for ideas for training with Lucy beyond sit/heel/recall because she isn't so keen on retrieving. Retrieving has become the focus of the subsequent replies and it's all really useful information. No one has given any stupid advice like chuck balls all day until it picks up on what you want it to do, but it has given me lots of ideas of what I can try. It doesn't mean I will try everything, or that I will persist with things after I've tried them a couple of times if they don't seem to work. It was just the type of discussion I wanted from my OP. If anyone can help me make sit/recall fun (not only impatient, but lacking in creativity) or has any other non retrieve training ideas, that would be great too! Its going to be difficult to suggest much to make the training you suggest more fun for the dog other tan as I already suggested a treat or some food rations for recall , a retrieve would normally be a good reward for the dog but in your case that is not going to work. I could offer no further training suggestions for a 6 month old puppy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmints Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Its going to be difficult to suggest much to make the training you suggest more fun for the dog other tan as I already suggested a treat or some food rations for recall , a retrieve would normally be a good reward for the dog but in your case that is not going to work. This is hitting my nail right on the head! Lots of what I read and watch say give a retrieve as a reward, but Lucy couldn't care less! I am going to try treat for recall, thanks for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 As a reward u could let ur dog hunt a bit, (but could be counter productive with ur retrieving training) far better to give ur trainer a bell and ask on on the phone wot u could be doing over the next month before ur next lesson, or book an extra 1 in. Could make it slightly more exciting by praising ur dog more (assuming its doing right) in a right high pitched baby voice Does it really matter how good the trainer actually is on here, all that matters is the advice is good (and generally it is pretty good on here ) But where it falls down is far too much room for misunderstanding reading the posts on both sides added to possibly carrying it out badly plus the fact no one has seen ur dog, may advise something completely different if u seen the dog. I followed some advice given to me off a top hpr trainer at a trial i was watching (who i have known for 20 odd years) it is the biggest mistake i've ever made in dog training and my dog has still never recovered, knew at the time it was bad advice for me and my dog but when a trainer of their reputation tells u u are doing it all wrong u sort of listen, but they had never seen the dog. Not saying bad advice just bad advice for that dog and i should of known better u live and learn thou Have really ruined a gifted dog, but now i only follow advice if it makes sense to me and i understand the logic behind it. Some famous trainer wrote u should never make the same mistakes again, but u usually make totally different ones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmints Posted May 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Well this morning I tried the hunting as a reward for a returned rabbit skin ball with success. I took her to a car park near me, sat her up and threw it out, letting her go for it straight away. She chased, picked up, ran about half way back to me then dropped it and went off sniffing. Walked over quickly, held her by the scruff and brought her back to me to try again, same thing exactly, so put her on the lead and walked on. After another ten mins, I tried again, same result first time, but when I went and got her brought her back and sat her up, she chased and brought back to me! I then gave her loads of praise then let her run off and sniff to her hearts content. Will try again tomorrow afternoon and see what happens! Progress though!! Thanks for the help guys! I will keep you updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumpy69 Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Not very experienced in training gun dogs but by taking her back by the scruff she could be associating this with picking up the ball and thinking this is what she is doing wrong, remember dogs do not think like us, my spaniel used to run in and not come back to me, I seen a trainer and he said as I was punishing him when he eventually came back he was associating the punishment with coming back so did not want to come back, he told me next time to give chase as if trying to catch him, I think all I had to do was catch him twice then after that all it took was a couple of quick steps in his direction and he knew it was tome to come backl Have you tried running in the opposite direction when she picks up the ball start moving as soon as she starts to come towards you, or even running backwards encouraging her, this can make them forget about the ball in mouth and she may come running straight back without dropping. If it works big praise and try once more to reinforce then try throwing once more without moving away. If she does as before just ignore that she did it and try again the next day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmints Posted May 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Thanks Stumpy, I did wonder about that, but by the time I get to her, she has dropped the ball and gone off sniffing elsewhere and it did "work" in the end, so hopefully her mind is off retrieving, on sniffing and then thinking, uh oh, what have I done wrong?! Thanks for the advice though, I will proceed with caution. Any of the experienced handlers have any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B725 Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 At 6 month old I would not worry at all about retieving 10 -15 minutes training each time will be enough.You can try with something the dog likes to play with and throw it a few feet in the house for it to bring back,do not get into a tug of war if it does not give it back to you.Some dogs take a while to train as are some that pick it up at an early age I think you will be ok just dont be in a rush to have a great dog,I did not let mine go shooting properly untill he was almost 2 as I did not think he was ready untill then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wj939 Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Could try laying on your back once you've thrown it. Catches the dog off guard first few times and they come back to investigate what's happened to you! One other thing. 10 yards is plenty far enough at this age the closer you make the retrieves the less chance the dog has to only come half way back, at this age it's all about not letting the dog fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker boy Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Go back to the start. Simple really. Start in a hallway/kitchen etc. Sit on the floor, hold the dog,and roll the tennis ball 3 foot. Let the dog go. When the dog comes back with it, it can't go anywhere else, praise it like its just won you a million pounds. Repeat twice more. Put the dog back in the kennel. Do that a couple of times a day untill you can do it in the garden. It won't happen in a day, it may take a month, but don't rush onto the next stage before that is 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 (edited) Go back to the start. Simple really. Start in a hallway/kitchen etc. Sit on the floor, hold the dog,and roll the tennis ball 3 foot. Let the dog go. When the dog comes back with it, it can't go anywhere else, praise it like its just won you a million pounds. Repeat twice more. Put the dog back in the kennel. Do that a couple of times a day untill you can do it in the garden. It won't happen in a day, it may take a month, but don't rush onto the next stage before that is 100%. Read most of the post on here and a good number are good advice including the above, apart from I would say a cpl or three times a WEEK would be more on the money. Far to much being put on retrieving at this young age, always leave the dog/pup wanting more is the trick with training. Good luck ... Edited May 3, 2014 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 If i was u the only advice i would be taking is from ur trainer, he has seen ur dog and u so knows wot the problem is and can probably tell u over the phone a couple of drills to try. With a reluctant retriever i would be very very careful punishing, scruffing or even raising/lowering ur voice the dog could very easliy mis understand wot u want and think the retrieveing/holding is wot its being scolded/punished (not really the right word but u know wot i mean ) for and so could make a small/non problem into a bigger problem Just take ur time and enjoy it it's still very young so plenty of time, probably best taking ur time as then will be NO temptetion to take it out this season, most dogs are ruined by taking them out too soon when not fully ready, been there got the t shirt as will most Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 As said take it easy, out of interest is it working lines with working parents? I only say as I have a gwp who is a reluctant retriever of dummies. Crossed her with a line of very keen bird orientated ones and the pup I have is a very very keen retriever and the litter were all carrying anything they could manage by the time they left. This one I have got as keen as possible from day 1 because her mum is not keen so that may play a part. In your situation I'd go with scottslad and listen to your trainer, if you are a basc member there is quite a good piece in the latest mag about reluctant ones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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