new to the flock Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 this is a proven method it does work but can also go very wrong if not done correct i have seen dogs never pick up again. and should be done as a last resort the way i find works well is to use something they dont wanna let go i.e there favorite toy tennis ball etc then chuck a retrieve in with dummies, cold game, if the dog is dropping the dummy on his way back you could be over doing it and he dont care about this one he wants the next. two or three retrieves a day is plenty. beretta88, If this exercise is conducted with an ear pinch or a toe loop and the reward is the pain stops, than yes this exercise can go very bad. However if you are using praise and a treat that the dog REALLY LIKES you will not have a problem. NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beretta88 Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 beretta88, If this exercise is conducted with an ear pinch or a toe loop and the reward is the pain stops, than yes this exercise can go very bad. However if you are using praise and a treat that the dog REALLY LIKES you will not have a problem. NTTF i accept your opinion personally ive been training gundogs for 10 years now and i was not on about putting the dog in pain. Simply that it can put the dog off retrieving all together in my view its better to have the dog drop the dummy and work from there not force the hold in the mouth part and have to start the hole retrive training from sctrach hope this clears up my last post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesneale89 Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 (edited) J Edited July 28, 2012 by jamesneale89 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETO Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 I don't like the way this is taught. A dog should want to hold things for you and be happy to do so, without having things forced in it's mouth. You may be rewarding the dog with a treat after, but what exactly are you rewarding. From the pictures you are rewarding the out command not the hold. If I may; I taught hold by letting the dog work it out. It took time but the dog was rewarded for what I wanted, which was the hold, the release came later. I also trained using a clicker. So with Louie, he already knew the clicker meant he did good that's what I expected and he got his treat. So I placed the retrieve article down on the floor and waited for an interaction with it. If it was just a look that got clicked, after several times of just looking at it, I stopped clicking and waited for something else to happen. In Lou's case he touched it with his nose.. then after several times of that I stopped rewarding for the touching of it and then he picked it up, the moment he put his mouth around it I clicked. Several times later I delayed the click for a few seconds whilst he had it in his mouth, then carried on for a few more goes, then added the cue to it. In my case this is "Hold". Then I simply delayed the click for as long as I felt comfortable with, and once I was certain he knew the "hold" then I phased out the clicker. Then I moved on to the give command. All you need is an armchair, a retrieve article, plenty of treats and patience. I'm sorry if I have intruded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 I don't like the way this is taught. A dog should want to hold things for you and be happy to do so, without having things forced in it's mouth. You may be rewarding the dog with a treat after, but what exactly are you rewarding. From the pictures you are rewarding the out command not the hold. If I may; I taught hold by letting the dog work it out. It took time but the dog was rewarded for what I wanted, which was the hold, the release came later. I also trained using a clicker. So with Louie, he already knew the clicker meant he did good that's what I expected and he got his treat. So I placed the retrieve article down on the floor and waited for an interaction with it. If it was just a look that got clicked, after several times of just looking at it, I stopped clicking and waited for something else to happen. In Lou's case he touched it with his nose.. then after several times of that I stopped rewarding for the touching of it and then he picked it up, the moment he put his mouth around it I clicked. Several times later I delayed the click for a few seconds whilst he had it in his mouth, then carried on for a few more goes, then added the cue to it. In my case this is "Hold". Then I simply delayed the click for as long as I felt comfortable with, and once I was certain he knew the "hold" then I phased out the clicker. Then I moved on to the give command. All you need is an armchair, a retrieve article, plenty of treats and patience. I'm sorry if I have intruded. Forced fetch is a very american thing, very rarely is it either used or needed on UK gundogs. Your way sounds awfull muddled and complicated for what is or should be an easy process Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETO Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Forced fetch is a very american thing, very rarely is it either used or needed on UK gundogs. Your way sounds awfull muddled and complicated for what is or should be an easy process It's perhaps how I wrote it, I was late for work..It is a fairly simple process when someone who isn't rushed writes it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 It's perhaps how I wrote it, I was late for work..It is a fairly simple process when someone who isn't rushed writes it your just over complicating things IMO. Retrieving is just recall with something in the dogs mouth, for a well bred dog its a reward in itself to bring stuff. Hence we dont tend to use FF much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikk Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 I saw this technique on youtube and I can tell you it caused me no end of problems to the point that he would turn his head away from me as soon as I showed him the dummy. In the end I found a much gentler approach. When my dog recalls with a rabbit skin dummy (nice and soft and one that he holds well) I would keep telling him to fetch/bring it back or what ever, refuse to actually look at him and keep turning away from from him, and taking a step or two away, every time he got close to me. My logic was that he would think I couldn't see him and he was trying to give it to me. I kept doing this and found he was constantly at my knee with the dummy at which point I would gently take it from him and give him praise and a treat. To make him present the dummy was tricky because as soon as I got him to sit in front of me he would let go of the dummy so I would take a step backwards and tell him fetch whilst showing him a treat. It didn't take very long before he got the idea. problem solved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 I saw this technique on youtube and I can tell you it caused me no end of problems to the point that he would turn his head away from me as soon as I showed him the dummy. In the end I found a much gentler approach. When my dog recalls with a rabbit skin dummy (nice and soft and one that he holds well) I would keep telling him to fetch/bring it back or what ever, refuse to actually look at him and keep turning away from from him, and taking a step or two away, every time he got close to me. My logic was that he would think I couldn't see him and he was trying to give it to me. I kept doing this and found he was constantly at my knee with the dummy at which point I would gently take it from him and give him praise and a treat. To make him present the dummy was tricky because as soon as I got him to sit in front of me he would let go of the dummy so I would take a step backwards and tell him fetch whilst showing him a treat. It didn't take very long before he got the idea. problem solved Better than treat come in the way of tone of voice and a chest rub etc on a good delivery than food or you quickly end up with a spitter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 Each time my dog made a retrieve, I'd sit her up in front of me and take few seconds to take the dummy/bird from her, each retrieve I'd wait a few seconds longer before taking the dummy/bird from her, then I gave her loads of praise. She soon learnt to hold untill I take the dummy/bird off of her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikk Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 Better than treat come in the way of tone of voice and a chest rub etc on a good delivery than food or you quickly end up with a spitter Yes initially that is what he tried to do...so i walk away saying "where is it" in a silly voice the same way...he did figure it out in a couple of days compared to me trying a forced method for several months with no joy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbh61 Posted September 19, 2013 Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 Hi everyone, I am new here but not new to dog training. Just look at the photos the dog is not happy, a table is not a natural place to train a dog. You should never need to make your dog do anything you and your dog are a team and you are the leader. The dog should want to please you and you should wish to teach him. I have told so many people in the past that " dogs think backwards" for example, if your dog runs off we want to go and get him but in truth as we now all know the best thing is to run away. So it is with the getting a dog to go out and pick something up. The 1st thing that dog needs to know it that you want the thing, easy make it smell good (not good to you) I rub the dummy with pigs liver. now start throwing it away from you both and the dog will go and get this good thing. now he has it you have started to think like a dog. You have worked backwards not putting it in his mouth or keeping it in. the lesson is now getting him to give it up when asked. I never worry at this stage about him sittin when he comes back in, just lots of good boy and not taking the dummy right away. On table no force just time spent with your dog and a little bending down. Never train on a lead or with treats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbh61 Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 You know, I have been thinking about this.How did this ever get pinned? It is so not the way to train a dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsonicnat Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Never mind about the whys and were-fores: Good Post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbh61 Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Never mind about the whys and were-fores: Good Post.You are happy to push something into your dogs mouth? shame on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbh61 Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 The chap that posted this also posted an eight week Obedience Training? training is a life long thing. Never trust someone that tells you they have a time frame for training a dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted September 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2013 atbh61. If you dont like the advice, dont use it. NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbh61 Posted September 21, 2013 Report Share Posted September 21, 2013 atbh61. If you dont like the advice, dont use it. NTTF That is the best advice you may have ever given. Why would I take "advice" from someone that still thinks its good training to push something into a dogs mouth and hold it there? My advice to you is get a dog and let it teach you how its mind works then you will start to understand why the rest of the dog training world has moved on from this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegleg31 Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Moved on?. A bloke I know who gets to the springer and cocker championship every year who's also a 'A' panel judge and write a dog article in a well known shooting magazine uses this technique. Are you telling me he's wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbh61 Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Moved on?. A bloke I know who gets to the springer and cocker championship every year who's also a 'A' panel judge and write a dog article in a well known shooting magazine uses this technique. Are you telling me he's wrong?Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Yes. And why are other peoples methods wrong and yours are the correct way to do things? Everyone has a different way of doing things. To think that your way is the only "correct" way for doing things is ludicrous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegleg31 Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Yes. And you're better qualified because?. Or is just your opinion that this technique is wrong?. I take it you prefer using positive training methods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbh61 Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 And why are other peoples methods wrong and yours are the correct way to do things? Everyone has a different way of doing things. To think that your way is the only "correct" way for doing things is ludicrous It is not that I am correct its is more that I know this is not,in the same way as I know hitting a dog with a stick is not the way to go. when asked Jeremy Hunt had this to say about it. The act of forcing a dummy into a dogs mouth - no matter how gentle - is very unsettling. Most dogs refuse to grip the dummy which means you then start to exert force to maintain the hold and the whole exercise disintegrates into a negative training situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbh61 Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Philippa Williams - Levenghyl Gundogs (displayed at crufts) I started doing training courses partly because I was horrified by some of the methods used by Old School trainers (forced Hold etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Philippa Williams - Levenghyl Gundogs (displayed at crufts) I started doing training courses partly because I was horrified by some of the methods used by Old School trainers (forced Hold etc). That's not really old school, it hasn't actually ever been a major UK way of doing things (even in the bad old days when training / dog breaking started and often ended in a thrashing). True FF with the toe hitch or ear pinch is widely used on the continent and States / Canada, it is sometimes used here in its more humane pain free format (to do otherwise might well break our cruelty laws). Thing is it just aint needed our UK bred dogs generally are mad for picking things up our predecessors saw to that via selective breeding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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