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Mongrel or thoroughbred


Harnser
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Friends of mine paid £800 a few years ago for a cockerpoo from a woman who called herself a breeder who was only in it for the money. It's a nice little dog but it's not worth £800 and it's not a cockerpoo its a mongrel.

What makes me laugh is go back a couple of decades and Labradoodle puppies would have been given away with annoyance as the owner explained how her Labrador got out and had its way with the Poodle three door down. How times change.

 

Kindest regards

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Natures way is diversity, at some point with out that diversity the breed will fail, how far do we take it?

 

I believe a true mongrel is one where the genetics have become so in-bred the animal and breed suffer, gun dog lines are not to bad but take a look at some of the other so called pure bred dogs, cruel comes to mind!

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Surely, given the simplistic way you describe " allowing the removal of faulty genes" it would be equally as easy to find a line of the same breed to do exactly the same?

 

its not actually, due to proliferation of certain sires once a faulty gene is there in a breed it soon proliferates (research the King Charles, its a prime example) . This shouldn't be a new ground to anyone who involves themselves in such things. Consider closer to home in the gundog world, high prevalence of Cancer at quite young ages in the Golden retriever, this could be fixed with some Lab blood say? Is a first cross working Goldie x Lab less capable at its job? I think not! It has the same mission brief at work and is also intentionally bred within the assistance dog world! Should it sell for upwards of £500 as a designer dog and the bitch bred to death for profit? No! Could it potentially improve the health of the Goldie? Yes and so could using a registered sire back into normal Goldie lines once it was proved breeding true to Goldie form again and the "breed" could only benefit. Faulty genes are actually easy to replace IF a breed is hit with TRUE new blood soon enough.

 

Now there is a big factor in that "breeding true" The KC does not wish to register and the buying public does not want to lash out on a Golden retriever (or any other pedigree dog) and have it look more like a coconut door mat crossed with a half melted wellington boot. Consider now the Working and show lab, do they look like the same dog breed? No! In fact the one for sale on here at present looks nothing like my own Dark yellow working bred Lab. So "true means what exactly?"

 

My sister in Law bought some designer breed paid a stack of money for a mal adjusted 3rd or 4th hand adult dog (it looks like a pug x poodle with a dash of cheap imitation sheepskin rug thrown in) and for all we can prove might well be - but its got a stupid label I can never remember nor care to, so I see the score but look deeper and there is a bigger picture at why putting an "out of breed cross" might be useful and more tolerated.

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its not actually, due to proliferation of certain sires once a faulty gene is there in a breed it soon proliferates (research the King Charles, its a prime example) . This shouldn't be a new ground to anyone who involves themselves in such things. Consider closer to home in the gundog world, high prevalence of Cancer at quite young ages in the Golden retriever, this could be fixed with some Lab blood say?

 

 

Very true - there's a certain extremely well known ESS Sire who has sired umpteen litters, despite him being a PRA carrier (although he himself has not been tested). Who knows what offspring are carriers - or worse?

Edited by bigbird
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its not actually, due to proliferation of certain sires once a faulty gene is there in a breed it soon proliferates (research the King Charles, its a prime example) . This shouldn't be a new ground to anyone who involves themselves in such things. Consider closer to home in the gundog world, high prevalence of Cancer at quite young ages in the Golden retriever, this could be fixed with some Lab blood say? Is a first cross working Goldie x Lab less capable at its job? I think not! It has the same mission brief at work and is also intentionally bred within the assistance dog world! Should it sell for upwards of £500 as a designer dog and the bitch bred to death for profit? No! Could it potentially improve the health of the Goldie? Yes and so could using a registered sire back into normal Goldie lines once it was proved breeding true to Goldie form again and the "breed" could only benefit. Faulty genes are actually easy to replace IF a breed is hit with TRUE new blood soon enough.

 

Now there is a big factor in that "breeding true" The KC does not wish to register and the buying public does not want to lash out on a Golden retriever (or any other pedigree dog) and have it look more like a coconut door mat crossed with a half melted wellington boot. Consider now the Working and show lab, do they look like the same dog breed? No! In fact the one for sale on here at present looks nothing like my own Dark yellow working bred Lab. So "true means what exactly?"

 

My sister in Law bought some designer breed paid a stack of money for a mal adjusted 3rd or 4th hand adult dog (it looks like a pug x poodle with a dash of cheap imitation sheepskin rug thrown in) and for all we can prove might well be - but its got a stupid label I can never remember nor care to, so I see the score but look deeper and there is a bigger picture at why putting an "out of breed cross" might be useful and more tolerated.

My Question was,why? Why not use a line of the same breed that has no history of the "faulty gene" as you call it and how can you say that the " 1/16th " of a completely different breed would be help or hindrance?

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My Question was,why? Why not use a line of the same breed that has no history of the "faulty gene" as you call it and how can you say that the " 1/16th " of a completely different breed would be help or hindrance?

 

You need to do the research and all will become clear, I am not a geneticist and there is a ton of stuff out there that will explain clearer than I can

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Not breeding "faulty genes" in, in the 1st place,is the key to having a healthier dog or line. Knowing the lines these "faulty genes" travel can help with the eradication of any particular problem that arises from these "faulty genes". Responsible/sensible breeders look at the big picture before breeding their dogs. Breeders of crossbreeds never do.

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It is a fact that, on average, mongrels live longer than pure-bred dogs. 1.2 years longer - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090023313004486

 

There are also studies showing that mongrels require less veterinary treatment in their lifetime.

 

I think that Kent is referring to inbreeding depression, in which case out-crossing with a different breed does indeed have an advantage over breeding with an apparently "healthy" member of the same breed.

 

All of this talk of "faulty genes" is extremely simplistic anyway, especially without genotyping and/or sequencing each animal. Traits are rarely linked to single genes or mutations, or even directly to genes at all (epigenetics).

 

Bottom line though, I do agree that trying to call a mongrel a "Jug" or "cockapoo" and selling them for more than the cost of each pedigree parent combined is a bit much, but if people are willing to pay! I was talking to a dog owner on a walk who proudly told me that she had a "sprockerlab"!....

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It is a fact that, on average, mongrels live longer than pure-bred dogs. 1.2 years longer - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090023313004486

 

There are also studies showing that mongrels require less veterinary treatment in their lifetime.

 

I think that Kent is referring to inbreeding depression, in which case out-crossing with a different breed does indeed have an advantage over breeding with an apparently "healthy" member of the same breed.

 

All of this talk of "faulty genes" is extremely simplistic anyway, especially without genotyping and/or sequencing each animal. Traits are rarely linked to single genes or mutations, or even directly to genes at all (epigenetics).

 

Bottom line though, I do agree that trying to call a mongrel a "Jug" or "cockapoo" and selling them for more than the cost of each pedigree parent combined is a bit much, but if people are willing to pay! I was talking to a dog owner on a walk who proudly told me that she had a "sprockerlab"!....

The debate was not regarding "traits" though? Cancer and other illness' was the debate. Single genes and mutations are/can be responsible for this.

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Not all pure bred dogs make it as good gun dogs Same with mongrels.

ive 2 young lab x springer and ones up there with the best of dogs ive had and have not a first choice but he didnt cost me 600+ but on the other hand his brothers useless bless him but will work but might take bit longer. my other labs took about the same time to train etc.

But saying all the above I wouldnt breed on from crosses or want to pay for one

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Not breeding "faulty genes" in, in the 1st place,is the key to having a healthier dog or line. Knowing the lines these "faulty genes" travel can help with the eradication of any particular problem that arises from these "faulty genes". Responsible/sensible breeders look at the big picture before breeding their dogs. Breeders of crossbreeds never do.

Just read up on it, faulty genes occur when a gene mutates mostly within a small gene pool. It might not even show for generations

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As Kent says, a 'faulty' gene is usually (although not always) recessive which is why it's more likely to express itself within a small gene pool. However where a lot of people go wrong is thinking that there's always, say, a gene 'for' cancer, or a gene 'for' obesity. Whilst there are obvious examples as carriers for PRA etc this isn't the case in every undesirable trait. Several genes may work together (or against one another) for, example obesity. A predisposition to obesity could be caused (thinking aloud) by several factors, including appetite, activation of 'stretch receptors' int he stomach, brain function in reading these signs, speed of reaction to this, sense of taste, sense of smell etc all of which are affected by waaaaaayyyy more than one gene. Phew, that was heavy and it's Friday night!

I know I've rambled but I hope I make sense!

Edited by bigbird
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Until such time as full DNA profiling is available, (which I doubt will be very soon) the best we can do at present is to only breed from health tested dogs and similarly only buy from the same.

It will never happen with crosses but the objective should be to breed dogs with a view to improving the breed. I'm not to sure that "adding a bit of external blood" as has been proposed is the way forward.

This doesn't answer Harnsers original question but the thread seems to have expanded a little ....

 

DaveL

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