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islandgun
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I could be wrong but why consent to being dipped. Unless you are being charged with something why volunteer to a search, dip or even give your name. You are not obliged to do anything unless a charge and arrest is presented. There is enough unlawful stop and search, evictions,tv licencing home visits going on all in the name of an Act. Why tell them anything under their suspicion? Especially if you are innocent, more so if not lol. Furthermore if the powers that be stopped ripping us off then red diesel wouldn't be an issue. I drive s 4x4 stealth estate covered in mud and not been stopped yet and I pity the fool that does.

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At one point i was going t get a magnet sign made saying iv been stopped and i dont run on red as i was getting stopped that often i drive a 12 year new hilux i run it on 75% bio to 25% derv untill it gets cold lol

No problem with Bio when you were dipped then, I will be on holiday in Yorkshire in October so can look forward to being dipped then !

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Next they will be dipping your tank, checking your laptop for illegal images because you look shifty and they suspect you of being that way inclined. All for an act. Its not law. Penalty issues under finance act 1994 following hydrocarbons oil duties act 1979. The gov.uk even has a hotline to drop people in the clag if you suspect them of using red. Sad state of affairs. Its only revenue loss, how much profit do they need. And yes I can see all aspects of an argument and see they will levy elsewhere to compensate. Because we let them!

Edited by onatangent
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Two interesting comments, when I had to work for a living I had a Range Rover and was driving to a customer in the sticks and came across a lay-by and the police pulled me over and said they were going to dip my tank, I explained that it was petrol and the answer I got was " they all say that" so they proceeded to dip and had a few red faces not diesel.

 

On my annual drive to Greece the diesel in Italy close to the Swiss boarder has green dye in it to stop the Swiss crossing the boarder to buy cheap fuel as it more expensive in Switzerland. If I'm dipped in the UK will I have residue in the tank that would cause them to accuse me of using RED not Green??????

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You have paid the appropriate duty while abroad and naturally you are innocent unless they can prove guilt. Google vids for people who refuse to comply merely at the whim of an act be it taking videos outside Windsor as a tourist or the tv licencing man saying he wants to search your house for tvs, in the name of an act. There might be deviations but why be persecuted so the hmduties bod might get lucky. What are his suspicions founded on, nothing other than chance he/she might get lucky. Will have to read more but it seems red diesel falls under a civil action and not a criminal one. There is cross over between the two I am sure. As citizens we aren't taken seriously and are expected to comply without question. We assume we are wrong as they are the professional doing a job. Be polite, be informed and be prepared for a bit of inconvenience. If I get chance I will try and educate myself but as with most things the wording can be hard work and the resources hard to cross refer to.

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last rant, surely suspicions have to be founded on something so unless they have video footage of you buying diesel to prove guilt then I would drive off into the sunset, unless I was arrested of course then I wouldn't lol. Prove guilt, confirm with physical evidence by dipping my tank, fair cop. Not I am innocent, you are treating me as I am guilty and dipping my tank without cause to do so as part of an investigation. The mind boggles.

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last rant, surely suspicions have to be founded on something so unless they have video footage of you buying diesel to prove guilt then I would drive off into the sunset, unless I was arrested of course then I wouldn't lol. Prove guilt, confirm with physical evidence by dipping my tank, fair cop. Not I am innocent, you are treating me as I am guilty and dipping my tank without cause to do so as part of an investigation. The mind boggles.

I see what you mean, we widely accept that if other people find us suspicious because we drive an old vehicle or look un- acceptable that they can stop us in the street or road based on nothing more than a whim, surely not :whistling:

 

 

Pestcontrol 1 must look a bit rum :)

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Unfortunately you can apply it to lots of situations in your day to day life. Not uncommon for the go to statement to be, suspicion of. But why suspicion, everyone is suspicious surely. I watched a man citizens arrest a bobby for assault and non of the bobbys colleagues assisted or enforced the arrest even though it was a legitimate complaint. Ok so the bobby in question was their police chief but still doesn't make exemptions. I have lost faith hence my rants. Either arrest me or move away. If you had red mist coming out of your vehicle then fine or other evidence that was plain to see which then gave reason to stop and search, great. Treat people as criminals in the hope you catch one, not cricket.

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had a read of the first 3 pages. Is there a relevant one I should aim for? Individual experiences to fines don't demonstrate legality just susceptibility to allow the dipping in the first place without reasonable cause other than them fancying it. Gladly concede as life is a learning one so roll on reading the chapter and verse stating that without charge you can be searched. I can think of is PACE, another act and not law.

Edited by onatangent
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Hope no one on here works for vosa

 

Whilst I dont know whether anyone from VOSA specifically is a member, there are "guest" members monitoring the forum all the time from various law enforcement and government agencies - we can tell from the IP numbers they are visiting from.

 

People think they are anonymous, but they really arent. It is very easy to find out who people really are just based on what they give away about themselves without any jiggery pokery. I can recall a couple of occasions in the past where people have been dumb enough to allude to law breaking on here and other forums who have subsequently had a knock on the door from the authorities.

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Fair point, I have nothing to hide. Unfortunately I do not agree with the invasion of your rights to privacy and a private life without persecution through a body enforcing an act, not a law. We can all propose an act if we were a representing body and hope it gets passed and retire on the fines we could impose, hello BBC lol.

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I could be wrong but why consent to being dipped. Unless you are being charged with something why volunteer to a search, dip or even give your name. You are not obliged to do anything unless a charge and arrest is presented. There is enough unlawful stop and search, evictions,tv licencing home visits going on all in the name of an Act. Why tell them anything under their suspicion? Especially if you are innocent, more so if not lol. Furthermore if the powers that be stopped ripping us off then red diesel wouldn't be an issue. I drive s 4x4 stealth estate covered in mud and not been stopped yet and I pity the fool that does.

Around us they take over laybys vosa set up in them plod in cars and on bikes it dont have to be a diesel to get stopped they check everything from lights to to mot tax everything in one day last year they removed over 200 cars vans 4x4 even motorbikes peds off the road just in one layby that was the day i got stopped going to get filled up at morrisons then getting stopped again on the way home and as for consenting to been stopped and dipped YOU have no option

 

No problem with Bio when you were dipped then, I will be on holiday in Yorkshire in October so can look forward to being dipped then !

No not a problem at all only when the weather gets cold and yes if your in the right place at the right time its very possible :lol:

 

I see what you mean, we widely accept that if other people find us suspicious because we drive an old vehicle or look un- acceptable that they can stop us in the street or road based on nothing more than a whim, surely not :whistling:

 

 

Pestcontrol 1 must look a bit rum :)

:lol: face of an angel :whistling:

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you do have an option. If you do not consent what can they do? Arrest you, fine. Charge you with what? Obstruction of acting on suspicion with no proof? Laughable. I am sure there is a legal beagle on here that could illustrate legal presedence or similar. I might start walking the streets and citizen arresting people that look like deviants. No different to being stopped legal reason to do so? All about consent. If they say I am going to search you, answer no I do not consent. Without charge it will either be, assault, trespass, criminal damage,wrongful arrest etc etc. Delete as appropriate. Nanny state treating everyone as a suspect without retribution to their actions. If anyone knows of a dipping point happening in the Worcester,Cheltenham, Evesham and surrounding area let me know and I will gladly put this to the test and post the results good bad or indifferent. You are innocent until proven guilty and the burden off proof is with them. Where is their proof to carry out a dip, there is none. These traps have their merits I know but its luck. If you captured everyone and plucked them to death then I am sure you would solve plenty of things.....UNLAWFULLY

Edited by onatangent
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you do have an option. If you do not consent what can they do? Arrest you, fine. Charge you with what? Obstruction of acting on suspicion with no proof? Laughable. I am sure there is a legal beagle on here that could illustrate legal presedence or similar. I might start walking the streets and citizen arresting people that look like deviants. No different to being stopped legal reason to do so? All about consent. If they say I am going to search you, answer no I do not consent. Without charge it will either be, assault, trespass, criminal damage,wrongful arrest etc etc. Delete as appropriate. Nanny state treating everyone as a suspect without retribution to their actions. If anyone knows of a dipping point happening in the Worcester,Cheltenham, Evesham and surrounding area let me know and I will gladly put this to the test and post the results good bad or indifferent. You are innocent until proven guilty and the burden off proof is with them. Where is their proof to carry out a dip, there is none. These traps have their merits I know but its luck. If you captured everyone and plucked them to death then I am sure you would solve plenty of things.....UNLAWFULLY

 

Unfortunately you are not dealing with police powers you are dealing with HMRC so what you have listed about stop and search has no bearing. HMRC have the power to inspect at any time regardless of reason, they can and do carry out a VAT inspection on my business at any time regardless of any proof of wrongdoing, this is no difference and you cannot refuse.

 

The law regarding HMRC officers state for Fuel for road vehicles : Offence... obstruct one of our officers inspecting premises or vehicles or testing or sampling oil ... Penalty .... an unlimited fine or imprisonment for up to two years, or both.

 

https://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/downloadFile?contentID=HMCE_CL_000164

 

Drive off and you will be charged with obstruction under that law.

Edited by timps
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I disagree. People can only be present on your property with consent and implied consent can be removed by the landowner or tenant. HMRC are not the law nor are they above it. Compliance is your choice. Why would any one wish to incriminate themselves? Prove I am living beyond my means, not declaring my cash sales etc etc. Make a case with evidence. Suspicion is bs on its own surely?? Investigative policing not supposition. As I said I will happily put it to the test as its unlawful. An act is not law. Most police attendance is to maintane the peace and try to arrest for breach of it. As a citizen you can use reasonable force, against anyone should the reason be arguable in court. If you have something they can leverage against you be it fac, licence, etc then compliance is expected for fear of the unknown repercussions. Just because hmrc and the police do things does not make it legal/lawful. As I said its an act, not law offered up in the best interest of the public, sorry revenue in fines and imposition.

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Also do they offer a warrant to search your premises signed by a judge for your car or property in direct violation to a law you have broken? No then sling your hook. If you were caught circumventing an act you would be prosecuted against a relevant law, fraud, theft etc assuming you allowed them access in the first place.

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You can disagree all you like but HMRC can and do carry out random tests regardless of suspicion of guilt. They have that power and do it every day to business owners and self employed. They can also test in your absence, if you hinder this you can be charged with obstruction.

 

Believe me if I could tell HMRC to do one I and every business owner in the land would do it. HMRC may enter any premises except private dwelling houses to inspect, test or sample any fuels or oils be it in a vehicle or elsewhere. So unless you park your vehicle in your front room of your dwelling a warrant is not needed.

 

An act is law otherwise how would anybody be prosecuted under the firearms act it’s the basis of law.

You will have your day in court to argue what you did was not obstruction but refusing a dip is going to be seen as obstruction all day long as it would have been tested without your interference and refusal.

 

Try your argument on refusing a breath test and see how long you keep your licence regardless if you had been drinking or not.

 

HMRC have more powers than the police to carry out their duties.

Edited by timps
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Will have to agree to disagree then. I am self employed and have been for a while now so look forward to the day it happens. Been a fun topic thus far and I will stick to my guns should the time come. See you on the 6 o'clock news . There is a big movement at the minute with oppositions to acts as freemen. Things are forced upon us in our best interest applicable or not whether you or I vote on it or its passed and issued without notice. Act still isn't a law. Guidelines for pursuance to prosecute in law. I'm sure I will have my day, and video my failure or success hopefully lol

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Been doing reading and there are confusions to be had but I found this, it suits my argument so thought I would paste it in;

Act can only have the force of law when agreed to. This is a maxim of law. Which basically means it isn't law unless there is agreement of the parties. (Contract). A drivers licence, Hunting Licence, etc would be proof of contract. Basically what it boils down to is this.

1,. Criminal Code - Deals with Crime. Murder, Theft, Assault, Property Damage etc.
2. Acts - Contract Terms.
3. Bylaws - Corporate Policies, which are only applicable to corporate employees.

Many people lump all the above under "law" which is not the case. There are major differences which is why they have different classifications.

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It's entirely up to you how you deal with them, I wish you luck but already know the outcome.

 

However there is no confusion on an act of parliament :-.

 

A draft piece of legislation is called a bill when this is passed by Parliament it becomes an Act and part of statute law.

 

or

 

An Act of Parliament creates a new law or changes an existing law. AnAct is a Bill approved by both the House of Commons and the House of Lords and formally agreed to by the reigning monarch (known as Royal Assent).

 

It is how laws are made, you can argue whether you broke it or the meaning of it, but not that it exists as law.

 

So bearing that in mind you will be arrested for obstruction and you will have to prove that what you did is not what the act meant by obstruction.

Edited by timps
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Read that bit from gov website and found my quote on legal website and mine was easier to decipher and see the nuts and bolts of it. If things are never challenged and merely accepted where would we be, exactly where we are I guess. Power to the People :friends:. Always looking to be educated and demystified and enjoy the banter associated with it. There is always a viewpoint and if I'm wrong then hey I have been educated. What I do with it, well...old dog new tricks lol

Edited by onatangent
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Fair enough, unfortunately the judge is going to be taking the UK governments view that an act of parliament is law.

 

You on the other hand are going to be taking an anonymous poster on an internet forum who is posting from an Americans legal prospective on the word ‘ACT’ not ‘act of parliament’ and was corrected by people from the UK on the very next few posts.

 

If you break this act of parliament I know exactly where you will be.... for the next few months at least :):)

 

and yep it was always a friendly discussion :good:

Edited by timps
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