South Africa - professional hunting

[SEshooter]

Why would you want to kill a hippo with a bow?

[spartan7510]

Sorry, but you're clutching at straws now and not making much sense, and insulting me wont make your posts anymore logical nor relevant I'm afraid.

In the case above the lion is killed from necessity or 'need' as you put it, whether with a spear or a bow, because as you claim, the natives don't have the luxury of powerful rifles,so therefore have no choice, unlike your hippo shooter.

I've seen Massai Initiation Hunts, what relevance does that have to this thread?

 

You are going in circles here…..The relevance it has was in reply to your statement "If the natives are killing for sport then they're obviously not starving nor doing it for the sake of survival of the fittest, as the two contradict each other." I countered this nonsense with "So hunting a lion that is attacking your cattle is not sport? You don’t need to eat it but you need to kill it..... survival of the fittest. I also said this is a ritual, which is not only need out of necessity, but you chose to focus only on the need. The point been in the thread is people are quick to bash sport hunters for the sake of humane killing, but forget about the other side of the spectrum. Does the animal suffer any less was my question I posed if it is been hunted out of necessity/ritual versus sport? Im sure in the modern age, particularly in Africa, many would have access to weapons to shoot animals if they wanted to, but many still CHOOSE to stick to their customs and traditions and use bow&arrow and spear. I don’t see an issue if the professional hunter wanted to follow suite….if it is not illegal.

[sitsinhedges]

Why would you want to kill a hippo with a bow?

Why would you want to kill anything with anything at anytime?

 

If you don't know the answer what are you doing on a shooting forum?

[chrisjpainter]

Why would you want to kill anything with anything at anytime?

 

If you don't know the answer what are you doing on a shooting forum?

'because I can - just' is a terrible justification for doing it. I think I could just about agree to disagree with someone on trophy hunting, as long as it's done quickly. But bow hunting unsuitable species when you don't absolutely have to surely is a step too far? That's getting perilously close to blood lust and that's not going to do the shooting community any good.

Edited September 22, 2014 by chrisjpainter

[SEshooter]

I personally enjoy wildfowling. I enjoy the challenge of getting out on the marsh to where the birds are likely to be. I enjoy being out there and seeing all the other bird life. I enjoy concealing myself so I can get within range of a shot. I take the RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB that will allow me to shoot and humanely kill the species I am targeting. This is why I am on a shooting forum to share and learn from others experiences. I don't take a air rifle shoot a goose so it is unable to fly away then give it 3 more shots in the hope that it will die. So back to my question why would you want to shoot a hippo with a bow?

[dodeer]

In these countries it's plain and simple:-

 

No hunting = no animals.

 

Canned or what it's no ones business apart from the hunter and organiser. As long as within the law and done as humanely as possible.

[Scully]

 

You are going in circles here…..The relevance it has was in reply to your statement "If the natives are killing for sport then they're obviously not starving nor doing it for the sake of survival of the fittest, as the two contradict each other." I countered this nonsense with "So hunting a lion that is attacking your cattle is not sport? You don’t need to eat it but you need to kill it..... survival of the fittest. I also said this is a ritual, which is not only need out of necessity, but you chose to focus only on the need. The point been in the thread is people are quick to bash sport hunters for the sake of humane killing, but forget about the other side of the spectrum. Does the animal suffer any less was my question I posed if it is been hunted out of necessity/ritual versus sport? Im sure in the modern age, particularly in Africa, many would have access to weapons to shoot animals if they wanted to, but many still CHOOSE to stick to their customs and traditions and use bow&arrow and spear. I don’t see an issue if the professional hunter wanted to follow suite….if it is not illegal.

I'm not the only one talking nonsense it would seem. You are constantly contradicting your claims; now you're backtracking and claiming that 'many' would have access to weapons to shoot animals; are you now claiming the 'many' are indeed natives who you previously state don't have that luxury?

No, hunting a lion which is attacking your cattle is not sport, but in fact need, as you put it, carried out by the owner of those cattle, unless he farms the job out to someone who wants to do it in the name of sport, which I doubt, but I'm not just focusing on the 'need'.

What is the 'other side of the spectrum'? Can you answer any of the questions I've asked? You haven't answered any of the questions I've so far asked in previous posts, and now seem to be trying to blur how the hippo did in fact meet its end. Wasn't it shot 4 times with arrows? What relevance does the Masai Hunting Intitiation have to do with this thread? Are you now claiming the hippo hunter was undergoing some offshoot of a Massai Hunting Initiation ritual?

I kill animals for enjoyment, or 'sport' if that's what you want to call it, as do most on this forum, and I have no objection to anyone killing anything for either sport or food, as long as it's done as quickly as possible, but I don't deliberately prolong an animals suffering when there is an alternative. I simply can't understand why anyone would want to do that.

[birdsallpl]

You are going in circles here…..The relevance it has was in reply to your statement "If the natives are killing for sport then they're obviously not starving nor doing it for the sake of survival of the fittest, as the two contradict each other." I countered this nonsense with "So hunting a lion that is attacking your cattle is not sport? You don’t need to eat it but you need to kill it..... survival of the fittest. I also said this is a ritual, which is not only need out of necessity, but you chose to focus only on the need. The point been in the thread is people are quick to bash sport hunters for the sake of humane killing, but forget about the other side of the spectrum. Does the animal suffer any less was my question I posed if it is been hunted out of necessity/ritual versus sport? Im sure in the modern age, particularly in Africa, many would have access to weapons to shoot animals if they wanted to, but many still CHOOSE to stick to their customs and traditions and use bow&arrow and spear. I don’t see an issue if the professional hunter wanted to follow suite….if it is not illegal.

 

I'm sorry spartan I was ready to call it a day on this thread but just had to challenge part of what you just said.

 

many would have access to weapons to shoot animals if they wanted to, but many still CHOOSE to stick to their customs and traditions and use bow&arrow and spear. I don’t see an issue if the professional hunter wanted to follow suite….if it is not illegal.[/font]

 

How can we possibly choose to follow something that in our country is considered a no just because we are in a land where it is legal. So we live in an environment that has certain standards but we ignore them when we go to a different country with lower standards. I really can't accept that as the right thing to do.

[Rim Fire]

Because there are good sporting pictures and bad sporting pictures and one doesn't know until they are seen.

Please tell me what is a good sporting picture and what is not the picture with the hippo was as good a sporting picture as the lion or any of the others UNTILL you read it was killed with a bow and arrow

[Tadorna]

that's not on mate. I know lots of decent people who like to work out and look after their selves. If he'd of been over weight with a massive gut you'd of stereotype a typical fat American. Your small minded ness is as exactly the same as an anti , (making assumptions as to what kind of people do what) by the way are you a typical toff who likes to run down foxes on horse back or a typical fat English (gent ) that stands by a wooden stick shooting birds that have been breed to die. Or a bloke who still feel the need to kill for the table when supermarkets have all you need .

None of the above. I am an opinionated South African who is not really bothered by what you think other.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Tadorna

[Tadorna]

All hunting is technically canned in SA. The small cans are illegal though. Big cans good. Family farm is 50 000 acres which is bigger than a lot of legal cans with difficult terrain and a lot smaller than some. All are fenced and therefore canned.

[birdsallpl]

Please tell me what is a good sporting picture and what is not the picture with the hippo was as good a sporting picture as the lion or any of the others UNTILL you read it was killed with a bow and arrow

 

This IMHO is a good sporting picture

[Mentalmac]

 

 

The other point I would add to that is that I also find many comments about this type of sport shooting been inhumane downright hypocritical. I bet most of the folk on this forum have eaten a kebab or some Halaal meat for example at some point in time. Go look into how humane Halaal slaughter is and how the animals are treated and think about that before eat your next Halaal certified meal. pot, kettle, black springs to mind. If there is concern about animal welfare start cleaning up your own house before blowing off hot air and telling someone else how to run theirs.

The Halal argument is weak. There is just as much inhumanity shown in all methods of slaughter (one example brain receptor tests done showing spikes in pain receptors when killed after stunning), and blokes punching and kicking pigs in the face... And how they treat chickens at processing plants (seen first hand...)

The natives may have to hunt with spear and bow but if someone has paid to come and shoot a hippo, why not do the animal a favour and kill it humanely and quickly and try to teach them about humanely killing rather than joining in. Can't just say well the natives do it for everything...

[sitsinhedges]

This IMHO is a good sporting picture

That just screams out cannon-fodder to me.

 

The chap shooting the hippo is wrong to do it that way really but that's just (some) Yanks for ya

[birdsallpl]

That just screams out cannon-fodder to me.

 

The chap shooting the hippo is wrong to do it that way really but that's just (some) Yanks for ya

I can see why you would think that, but to me it is about the composure of the photo, the birds in their masses, the gun about to take a shot probably bewildered as to what one to go for, presumably the loader looking in anticipation of what he needs to do quickly, the background sky and hill. A stunning picture. IMHO

[sitsinhedges]

I can see why you would think that, but to me it is about the composure of the photo, the birds in their masses, the gun about to take a shot probably bewildered as to what one to go for, presumably the loader looking in anticipation of what he needs to do quickly, the background sky and hill. A stunning picture. IMHO

 

About as far from Sporting as you can get in mine, more like a cull, but each to their own.

[jayDT10]

This IMHO is a good sporting picture

I fail to see how that's the best sporting photo for your argument . There's over a hundred birds in the sky nearly all within killing range at some point. Typical old English fat bloke posing with his gun . (As it's ok to stereotype ) lol.

[chrisjpainter]

I fail to see how that's the best sporting photo for your argument . There's over a hundred birds in the sky nearly all within killing range at some point. Typical old English fat bloke posing with his gun . (As it's ok to stereotype ) lol.

'sporting' isn't about range, it's about evening the odds. Even taking into account that I'm sure there are several gents firing on the front line, the odds for each individual bird are stacked in their favour, through sheer volume of numbers. The shooter also has to filter out all of the birds, concentrate on one in particular, aim then fire all before the bird gets out of range.

 

 

About as far from Sporting as you can get in mine, more like a cull, but each to their own.

It's a pretty ineffective way to do a cull!

[spartan7510]

The Halal argument is weak. There is just as much inhumanity shown in all methods of slaughter (one example brain receptor tests done showing spikes in pain receptors when killed after stunning), and blokes punching and kicking pigs in the face... And how they treat chickens at processing plants (seen first hand...)

The natives may have to hunt with spear and bow but if someone has paid to come and shoot a hippo, why not do the animal a favour and kill it humanely and quickly and try to teach them about humanely killing rather than joining in. Can't just say well the natives do it for everything...

 

Weak how so? Inhumane slaughter - this is general practice in Halaal slaughter houses, whereas the examples you give concerning slaughter are not general practice.....granted the odd bolt misses its mark, but generally suffering is limited. Not so in Halaal slaughter, where this is the norm. As for kicking and punching animals - it can be agreed is not normal practice..

[jayDT10]

'sporting' isn't about range, it's about evening the odds. Even taking into account that I'm sure there are several gents firing on the front line, the odds for each individual bird are stacked in their favour, through sheer volume of numbers. The shooter also has to filter out all of the birds, concentrate on one in particular, aim then fire all before the bird gets out of range.

 

It's a pretty ineffective way to do a cull!

on days like that it's nearly all about range if your a sporting man. But if you like to shoot stuff on the end of your gun all day crack on.

[spartan7510]

I can hand on heart say that I have mucked up shots, and have followed up with a second - lethal - shot immediately. I have never had to have four goes with an unsuitable weapon. The animal doesn't know if it's been hunted for sport or necessity, of course, but that's no justification for wilful barbarism. And I would happily criticise anyone hunting hippos if there are other animals available that are more suitable to the weapon available. If you're going to hunt for sport - whether native tribe or paying customer - you have a duty to the animal to limit suffering, because you hunt in the knowledge that the animal doesn't have to die and its death isn't required for food.

 

If I am being unfair with how I've described the hippo kill and that it took 4 shots, then you need to give a few more details. In my head I have, chap with bow hits the hippo four times and it's only killed after the fourth goes in. Or, did he miss with the first three and hit with the fourth? Either way it seems to be pretty shoddy marksmanship, with an unsuitable weapon when there is clearly a better choice available? or is there a third way that makes sense?

 

I can appreciate culture and history. But that doesn't give us the right to doll out unnecessary suffering just for the sake of it.

 

Ok, but don’t you think it’s a bit rich to be judgemental on a hunter using a bow and arrow who may have potentially mucked up a shot versus someone shooting with a high powered rifle? A couple of things to consider, you have range with your rifle (safe distance), the size of the animal you shoot (one shot may not suffice to take it down) and type of animal (does a wounded deer charge you like a hippo?). The challenge with a bow and arrow is not to get killed by a ****** off animal, your range and accuracy. A hippo will charge you and they are renowned to cause the most fatalities in Africa. Secondly, unless you are a crack shot with SAS sniper credentials or extremely lucky, I cannot see how your second shot would have limited the animals suffering in such short time – ie reload and fire. A wounded animal is either going to bolt off into the thick bush in which case you have to track it down, or it is going to be kicking and writhing in pain - not an easy target to hit dead on if you want to put it out of its misery hastily…….

Just so I understand your perspective, so it is ok for a native to hunt with bow and arrow/spear whether out of necessity/sport or ritual, but it is not ok for a professional hunter to hunt with a bow and arrow because somehow he has a duty of care, despite the animal suffering the same or potentially worse with the natives techniques?

[spartan7510]

I'm sorry spartan I was ready to call it a day on this thread but just had to challenge part of what you just said.

 

many would have access to weapons to shoot animals if they wanted to, but many still CHOOSE to stick to their customs and traditions and use bow&arrow and spear. I don’t see an issue if the professional hunter wanted to follow suite….if it is not illegal.[/font]

 

How can we possibly choose to follow something that in our country is considered a no just because we are in a land where it is legal. So we live in an environment that has certain standards but we ignore them when we go to a different country with lower standards. I really can't accept that as the right thing to do.

 

Fine that’s your perspective, I appreciate if people state that it is “not their cup of tea” and totally agree with that – big game hunting is not for everyone. The bloke holding the bow is the professional hunter and he is South African, so that is the environment he lives in. The issue is that I have a read quite load of **** where there are accusations of inhumane killing which is rich from posters part of a shooting forum particularly under sporting pictures. I guarantee you that if they have shot, not all of their kills have been clean and somewhere along the lines their quarry have suffered to a certain extent.

[pontbeck]

So , are you telling us that should the Hippo charge all the weapons available are bows ? No guide or other person standing by with a rifle ?

[chrisjpainter]

 

Ok, but don’t you think it’s a bit rich to be judgemental on a hunter using a bow and arrow who may have potentially mucked up a shot versus someone shooting with a high powered rifle? A couple of things to consider, you have range with your rifle (safe distance), the size of the animal you shoot (one shot may not suffice to take it down) and type of animal (does a wounded deer charge you like a hippo?). The challenge with a bow and arrow is not to get killed by a ****** off animal, your range and accuracy. A hippo will charge you and they are renowned to cause the most fatalities in Africa. Secondly, unless you are a crack shot with SAS sniper credentials or extremely lucky, I cannot see how your second shot would have limited the animals suffering in such short time – ie reload and fire. A wounded animal is either going to bolt off into the thick bush in which case you have to track it down, or it is going to be kicking and writhing in pain - not an easy target to hit dead on if you want to put it out of its misery hastily…….

Just so I understand your perspective, so it is ok for a native to hunt with bow and arrow/spear whether out of necessity/sport or ritual, but it is not ok for a professional hunter to hunt with a bow and arrow because somehow he has a duty of care, despite the animal suffering the same or potentially worse with the natives techniques?

 

how is it a bit judgemental? The issue is whether or not this guy made a clean kill. Taking four shots is appalling - whether shooting with a high powered rifle or a bow. It smacks of someone who shouldn't be in charge of a weapon. The question then becomes how do you maximise your chances of doing the job properly, which includes the right tools for the right job. You still haven't given any details about the situation, but I imagine that your first shot is the one that gives you the best chance of making the perfect shot. The fact is that a high powered rifle gives you far better chances than a bow on shot one, two, three and four.

 

If it's all about close range, what's stopping you from getting into bow hunting range and using a rifle? If it's about skill with a bow, this guy clearly hasn't got it.

 

Shall we do some science? which takes longer - two shots or four? Even if you have to track down the animal because you didn't get a true head or heart/lungs shot the first time round, it's still quicker to take two than having to take four shots. If you can't kill an animal without taking four shots, you shouldn't be hunting at all - regardless of the weapon of choice or the prey.

 

At no point have I said that hunting for sport with a bow and arrow is okay, as you will appreciate if you read my posts. If it's through necessity, for food and lack of an appropriate weapon it's not great, but it's more understandable. But the fact of the matter is you have a responsibility when you're taking life - when you're hunting for food as well but especially for sport. The example of the hippo shows no respect for the animal at all.

Edited September 23, 2014 by chrisjpainter

[spartan7510]

 

how is it a bit judgemental? The issue is whether or not this guy made a clean kill. Taking four shots is appalling - whether shooting with a high powered rifle or a bow. It smacks of someone who shouldn't be in charge of a weapon. The question then becomes how do you maximise your chances of doing the job properly, which includes the right tools for the right job. You still haven't given any details about the situation, but I imagine that your first shot is the one that gives you the best chance of making the perfect shot. The fact is that a high powered rifle gives you far better chances than a bow on shot one, two, three and four.

 

If it's all about close range, what's stopping you from getting into bow hunting range and using a rifle? If it's about skill with a bow, this guy clearly hasn't got it.

 

Shall we do some science? which takes longer - two shots or four? Even if you have to track down the animal because you didn't get a true head or heart/lungs shot the first time round, it's still quicker to take two than having to take four shots. If you can't kill an animal without taking four shots, you shouldn't be hunting at all - regardless of the weapon of choice or the prey.

 

At no point have I said that hunting for sport with a bow and arrow is okay, as you will appreciate if you read my posts. If it's through necessity, for food and lack of an appropriate weapon it's not great, but it's more understandable. But the fact of the matter is you have a responsibility when you're taking life - when you're hunting for food as well but especially for sport. The example of the hippo shows no respect for the animal at all.

 

how is it a bit judgemental? The issue is whether or not this guy made a clean kill. – because you have admitted yourself that you have not made a clean kill and had to take more than one shot – even with the apparent “right tools” for the job …. Point been the animal still suffered by your hands and this was the justification for your original argument. If I have not given any details of the situation then you should not be blowing off hot air and jumping to conclusions then… that is not wise to comment about a situation you have no understanding about or experience with, irrelevant of whether you went on a trip to Nambia or not – that makes you no expert in local affairs by a long shot.

 

Shall we do some science? which takes longer - two shots or four? Even if you have to track down the animal because you didn't get a true head or heart/lungs shot the first time round, it's still quicker to take two than having to take four shots. If you can't kill an animal without taking four shots, you shouldn't be hunting at all - regardless of the weapon of choice or the prey (LOL) Yes, let’s do the science then animal weighing 1.5 tonnes charging at you versus a deer weight of muntjac 10 – 16kg which would not charge you by a long shot. One you need to take evasive action in the interest of self-preservation, the other you don’t. You are trying to compare apples with pears Im afraid….and that is not “good science” And again you don’t know all the facts……

 

So let me ask you, have you ever hunted with a bow and arrow then to be making such remarks - purporting yourself as been an expert in this field? If so, please divulge exactly what you have hunted in such manner.