Fisherman Mike Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Thanks Mike, You must have some painful memories, it's good of you to post them. For a few years it affected my Cousin badly. I can remember the moments outside the ground very well but the rest is gone so it hasn't really been painful to any extent. Only when we saw on TV the footage of the consequences of the rush inside the ground and at the grandstand did we realise how serious it had been. The cover up by the Authorities was disgraceful and to their eternal shame. But they couldn't for one moment envisage how the crowds would react, especially as there were large numbers seeking to gain free entry, who simply seized the opportunity of the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning 425 clay hunter Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 The loss of life is tragic, if the police covered it up then they should be held accountable for the cover up, but like mike says, the act that killed the people that day was Liverpool fans crushing their own to death. Tragic situation and I'm sure the family's want 'justice' but making one person a scape goat for what was the fault of the fans just doesn't seen right to me. ATB 425 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Not sure if I've posted on this particular Forum about this previously but both Myself my Elder Brother and Cousin were at the game on that fateful day in April 89. We have given statements to the Police and Press at the time. 2 of us were outside the ground at the Leppings Lane End and one inside. It was a free for all as the majority of the Supporters gathered at the turn styles were late and fearful of missing the start of the Match. Most were intoxicated and many were touting for tickets because they had none... There were several cover ups, administrative and H&S failures and serious mistakes were made, but the crowd in the main stampeded through the gates and many innocent people were caught up in the rush. I was fortunate enough to get out of the way as I was large and strong enough to do so. Many were not. To say the police herded or forced the Stampeding fans to behave the way they did is erroneous. Duckenfield is being made a scapegoat in my opinion. I'm pleased the Liverpudlian families have got the results they wanted, as the victims in the main were innocent, however way you look at it though, the root cause of the stampede was a basic spontaneous degeneration in human behaviour, fuelled by alcohol. That's all I'm going to say on the subject and we should draw a line under it and move on. And to some degree, what sadly makes it all even worse is the astronomical cost of this enquiry and the number of people getting very "fat" indeed on the back of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) The loss of life is tragic, if the police covered it up then they should be held accountable for the cover up, but like mike says, the act that killed the people that day was Liverpool fans crushing their own to death. Tragic situation and I'm sure the family's want 'justice' but making one person a scape goat for what was the fault of the fans just doesn't seen right to me. ATB 425 The causal factor was them being allowed/ herded into an area to small to accommodate them, it has already been accepted that the fatal mistake was the opening of the gates to the tunnel accepted FACT, had that not happened the deaths would not have occurred accepted FACT, had the incompetent sheep herders realised what was going on and acted appropriately 41 of the victims at the very least would have survived accepted FACT, alcohol levels in the victims bodies was not considered a factor accepted FACT, plod altered evidence and fed lies to national newspapers accepted FACT, pitch invasion fences now removed contributed to the crush accepted FACT. but we still have it that its all down to drunkards, It matters not a jot if they were all pie eyed they had a right to be admitted to the stadium in safety simple as.and after all why did Mr Duckenfield lie? about opening the gates then or is it simply a case of we can no longer hide the truth and blame it on a few being ******. KW Edited March 19, 2015 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) So the fans that were pushing at the back are not responsible for anything? Reading Fisherman Mike's eye witness comments *9 which must have been hard to post) it seems there was some responsibility. I just hope the families can get closure after all this. Edited March 19, 2015 by keg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) So the fans that were pushing at the back are not responsible for anything? Reading Fisherman Mike's eye witness comments *9 which must have been hard to post) it seems there was some responsibility. I just hope the families can get closure after all this. No they should have been stopped from entering but the coppers opened the gates (remember they told the FA they were forced so they knew the score) and allowed 2000 to rush uncontrolled into an area far to small for them and those poor **** already in and crammed up against the fences.also remember the copper who says he now feels guilty for his "bad handling" of a supporter who was screaming trying to tell people what was happening, IE he knocked him to the ground and arrested him rather than help him and his friend who had had an arm broken KW Edited March 19, 2015 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 You're probably better off googling it as you can bet your life, any discussion will end up with people either slagging off scousers or the police. Or Both ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Until KW posted i don't think anybody had done either. KW if the police had not opened the gate then surely the front of the crowd would have been crushed with the same result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobt Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 if they had not turned up expecting to force their way in without a ticket it wouldnt have happened either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Also you have to remember that humans react based upon their experiences and to a lesser degree training. This happened during a period of time when there was large scale football violence and Liverpool fans had a reputation for it (Heysel 1985). The police had more experience of football violence than crush incidents such as this. Very sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) I can only think that if KW had been running things, it would never have happened.FACT. It has been accepted that those who were the victims in this incident were completely innocent. They were the ones who had arrived at the ground in ample time and therefore were at the fronts of the affected pens. It is doubtful that they would have been drinking either. Their injuries were as a direct result of being crushed against the barriers and the pen fronts. It was claimed that IF the outside gates had not been opened, that death or injury would have been caused OUTSIDE the ground. This I can well believe. In the 70's 80's and 90's I was Policing at least one and sometimes more fotball matches every week throughout the season. I can assure you that fans arriving late and DRUNK was a regular occurence. They would remain in the pubs around the 2 Liverpool grounds, until the last possible moment and then try any method possible to enter the ground, both legally and illegally. It was common practice for fans to run and dive headlong over the turnstiles. This leads to a situation where the safe numbers of fans in a given area can be greatly exceeded. I have actually witnessed 2 large wood gates at Anfield, being forced open by marauding drunken football fans. After all WHY were fences and barriers installed at football grounds in the first place ? I think you will find it was done to prevent a pitch invasion and pitched battles taking place between opposing fans. Most of the coaches carrying away fans to the grounds, will have LARGE quantities of alcohol on board to start with. Upon arrival at or near the ground, those fans will then seek out other supporters of the same team, who will already have found a suitable pub to congregate at. It is then the job of the Police to escort those fans to their designated area of the ground, preventing them from attacking or being attacked by the opposition. This is why a huge number of fans will all arrive at one point TOGETHER, often escorted by Mounted Officers and Dog Handlers. They will soon realise that the match has kicked off and it now becomes their sole intention to enter that ground, by fair means or foul. When you are in front of a mob of several hundred drunken fans who are trying to force entry, it becomes more an issue of survival than thinking of what may happen if those gates are opened. The Police could not be blamed for the design of the ground and when you are presented with a situation where life is at risk and your senior Officer OUTSIDE is screaming for the gates to be opened to prevent injuries, bear in mind, that Officer has no idea what is happening on the INSIDE of that gate. It is now blatantly obvious that more Police Officers should have been sent to divert the pending onslaught of fans on the INSIDE before the gates were opened, regardless of any loss of life outside. Hindsight............wonderful thing ! Edited March 19, 2015 by Westley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) Until KW posted i don't think anybody had done either. KW if the police had not opened the gate then surely the front of the crowd would have been crushed with the same result. No it was the result of them being let in that allowed the crush, plod lied and told the FA that the fans had broken through the gate , they had not, plod opened it on the orders of Mr Duckenfield who strangely took twenty odd years to admit to that little fact fact,and of course at the time they refused to recognise the consequences of their ineptness and covered it up.a journalist who was there at the time think they called him mason (must do a search) reported as such at the time exactly what is coming out now he was poo poohed away KW Edited March 19, 2015 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) I can only think that if KW had been running things, it would never have happened.FACT. It has been accepted that those who were the victims in this incident were completely innocent. They were the ones who had arrived at the ground in ample time and therefore were at the fronts of the affected pens. It is doubtful that they would have been drinking either. Their injuries were as a direct result of being crushed against the barriers and the pen fronts. It was claimed that IF the outside gates had not been opened, that death or injury would have been caused OUTSIDE the ground. This I can well believe. In the 70's 80's and 90's I was Policing at least one and sometimes more fotball matches every week throughout the season. I can assure you that fans arriving late and DRUNK was a regular occurence. They would remain in the pubs around the 2 Liverpool grounds, until the last possible moment and then try any method possible to enter the ground, both legally and illegally. It was common practice for fans to run and dive headlong over the turnstiles. This leads to a situation where the safe numbers of fans in a given area can be greatly exceeded. I have actually witnessed 2 large wood gates at Anfield, being forced open by marauding drunken football fans. After all WHY were fences and barriers installed at football grounds in the first place ? I think you will find it was done to prevent a pitch invasion and pitched battles taking place between opposing fans. Most of the coaches carrying away fans to the grounds, will have LARGE quantities of alcohol on board to start with. Upon arrival at or near the ground, those fans will then seek out other supporters of the same team, who will already have found a suitable pub to congregate at. It is then the job of the Police to escort those fans to their designated area of the ground, preventing them from attacking or being attacked by the opposition. This is why a huge number of fans will all arrive at one point TOGETHER, often escorted by Mounted Officers and Dog Handlers. They will soon realise that the match has kicked off and it now becomes their sole intention to enter that ground, by fair means or foul. When you are in front of a mob of several hundred drunken fans who are trying to force entry, it becomes more an issue of survival than thinking of what may happen if those gates are opened. The Police could not be blamed for the design of the ground and when you are presented with a situation where life is at risk and your senior Officer OUTSIDE is screaming for the gates to be opened to prevent injuries, bear in mind, that Officer has no idea what is happening on the INSIDE of that gate. It is now blatantly obvious that more Police Officers should have been sent to divert the pending onslaught of fans on the INSIDE before the gates were opened, regardless of any loss of life outside. Hindsight............wonderful thing ! lets just say if I had made a mistake I would have admitted it rather than used a corrupt inept bent system to cover it up for 20 odd years,and blame everyone else,christ they even told that bastion of the truth the Sun that drunken supporters were peeing on the dead, remember that? hindsight as said is a wonderful thing but foresight planning and risk assessment are far better, do keep up. KW Edited March 19, 2015 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Lets try and keep it respectful chaps, remember we didn't want it turning into a slanging match and lets accept that there was fault on both sides. The police were not innocent and by the sound of it neither were certain fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegleg31 Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 I can only think that if KW had been running things, it would never have happened.FACT. It has been accepted that those who were the victims in this incident were completely innocent. They were the ones who had arrived at the ground in ample time and therefore were at the fronts of the affected pens. It is doubtful that they would have been drinking either. Their injuries were as a direct result of being crushed against the barriers and the pen fronts. It was claimed that IF the outside gates had not been opened, that death or injury would have been caused OUTSIDE the ground. This I can well believe. In the 70's 80's and 90's I was Policing at least one and sometimes more fotball matches every week throughout the season. I can assure you that fans arriving late and DRUNK was a regular occurence. They would remain in the pubs around the 2 Liverpool grounds, until the last possible moment and then try any method possible to enter the ground, both legally and illegally. It was common practice for fans to run and dive headlong over the turnstiles. This leads to a situation where the safe numbers of fans in a given area can be greatly exceeded. I have actually witnessed 2 large wood gates at Anfield, being forced open by marauding drunken football fans. After all WHY were fences and barriers installed at football grounds in the first place ? I think you will find it was done to prevent a pitch invasion and pitched battles taking place between opposing fans. Most of the coaches carrying away fans to the grounds, will have LARGE quantities of alcohol on board to start with. Upon arrival at or near the ground, those fans will then seek out other supporters of the same team, who will already have found a suitable pub to congregate at. It is then the job of the Police to escort those fans to their designated area of the ground, preventing them from attacking or being attacked by the opposition. This is why a huge number of fans will all arrive at one point TOGETHER, often escorted by Mounted Officers and Dog Handlers. They will soon realise that the match has kicked off and it now becomes their sole intention to enter that ground, by fair means or foul. When you are in front of a mob of several hundred drunken fans who are trying to force entry, it becomes more an issue of survival than thinking of what may happen if those gates are opened. The Police could not be blamed for the design of the ground and when you are presented with a situation where life is at risk and your senior Officer OUTSIDE is screaming for the gates to be opened to prevent injuries, bear in mind, that Officer has no idea what is happening on the INSIDE of that gate. It is now blatantly obvious that more Police Officers should have been sent to divert the pending onslaught of fans on the INSIDE before the gates were opened, regardless of any loss of life outside. Hindsight............wonderful thing ! So is it acceptable that numbers of police officers lied in their statements?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) Lets try and keep it respectful chaps, remember we didn't want it turning into a slanging match and lets accept that there was fault on both sides. The police were not innocent and by the sound of it neither were certain fans. fans were not innocent totally but they were placed in that position, the ones at the back pushing in were not aware of the consequences of their actions on those at the front, and the fact remains as admitted and accepted , is that the deaths were the DIRECT result of the gates being opened on police orders,an order that was denied and denied till now, over a hundred police statements were altered, fictitious accounts of the events were given to the press, the FA was lied to, all now openly admitted, and the families of those who died had their loved ones names smeared with untruths and innuendo via those who should serve and protect. in respect to those who lost their lives and those who have striven for the truth for many many years I will bow out of this one here, nuff said. KW Edited March 19, 2015 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 I would disagree with the point about fans not being aware of the consequences of their actions. When pushing at the back of a crowd, anyone must realise the effect on those at the front, especially when the crowd stops moving. This applies to any gathering, not just football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 keg - are you saying that the fans, who were pushing to get in, knew that people were dying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 No i'm not. What i am saying is that when you push at the back of a queue you must be aware that it will be causing a problem further down the line, not death but certainly discomfort or pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 No matter what started it or what happened afterwards one thing that is evident is , that had the barriers not been there then the lose of life would have been minimal if any . Why were there barriers there , to stop rival groups of "fans" invading the pitch ,attacking the players and fighting running battles. It is football itself and the sudo religious fanaticism that it invokes that should be held partially to blame . I am glad that the truth is at last coming out and hope that those who have been questioning for so long will have some satisfaction . The cynic in me asks how much the lawyers have made off the back of their grief . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 It's one of the reasons i dislike and have no interest in the game. It doesn't seem to happen at rugby matches of either code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 I don't think that we can define a crowd as a single body with some sort of collective purpose or intention, to blame a crowd is meaningless. Each individual that was pushing and jostling is only aware of their immediate surroundings, not what was happening 50 - 100 yards away. Big crowds go to football matches, it is no surprise. The responsibility lies with those charged with controlling the crowd, i.e. the police and stewards, nobody else. If they failed to discharge their duties appropriately then the fault lies with them. If there was a failure of communication, no appropriate chain of command, a lack of understanding or whatever then they need to accept responsibility. The police knew where the pinch points would be, they knew where people were trying to get to and they knew at what time they would be there. It was an abject failure in control. Significant deaths through crowd surges had happened at other football grounds previously, notably Ibrox stadium in 1971, it was a known and considered risk. To then pervert the course of any investigation to absolve themselves of blame and to try and blame that on the fans was a sickening disgrace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Let someone disagree with that. Life being life - someone will. I feel sorry for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 No matter what started it or what happened afterwards one thing that is evident is , that had the barriers not been there then the lose of life would have been minimal if any . Why were there barriers there , to stop rival groups of "fans" invading the pitch ,attacking the players and fighting running battles. It is football itself and the sudo religious fanaticism that it invokes that should be held partially to blame . I am glad that the truth is at last coming out and hope that those who have been questioning for so long will have some satisfaction . The cynic in me asks how much the lawyers have made off the back of their grief . This is true...when opposing fans confront each other morality goes out of the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoot and be safe Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 The only positive, which is tiny, to have come from this horrific situation is the barriers that separated the fans from the pitch were removed and the reason why they were there improved. We have to remember that these barriers were in place to keep the rival fans apart, as at that time football violence was rife. I was only young at the time of Hillsborough but remember the football violence vividly. To many people trying to get to a place they didn't all have a ticket for, sadly it was the innocent fans in the ground that suffered the consequences of the poor management of the large crowds outside. Contributing factors can be placed with both, the police and the fans trying to get into the ground. Like I said in my original post, there are 3 sides to the story. "The police, The fans and The truth" I hope the families get closure from this inquest. Whether they accept the findings or not is down to them. At the end of all this, we have to remember that 96 innocent football fans lost their lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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