Dog in ewes and lambs

[rich1985]

As title suggest had a dog in ewes and lambs today, no harm was done this time, I caught the owner and said if needs be I would shoot the dog if harm was done to stock or I felt harm was going to be done to stock. Here is my question, if push came to shove and I did have to shoot a dog and believe me I dont want to be in that situation would I break any terms on my firearms licence if I used a rifle? The last condition on my licence States the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans. Would I be covered if I shot a dog to protect stock, the way I read it I think I would but just thought I would check with the masses. I guess the owner wouldn't be too pleased by the situation so want to make sure I'm totally legal if a situation arose.

[andrew f]

As title suggest had a dog in ewes and lambs today, no harm was done this time, I caught the owner and said if needs be I would shoot the dog if harm was done to stock or I felt harm was going to be done to stock. Here is my question, if push came to shove and I did have to shoot a dog and believe me I dont want to be in that situation would I break any terms on my firearms licence if I used a rifle? The last condition on my licence States the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans. Would I be covered if I shot a dog to protect stock, the way I read it I think I would but just thought I would check with the masses. I guess the owner wouldn't be too pleased by the situation so want to make sure I'm totally legal if a situation arose.

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/whats-the-law-on-dogs-worrying-sheep-5831. I wouldn't recommend doing so dogs aren't vermin so your rifle wouldn't be conditioned for doing so I believe I could be wrong though. Best way is to catch the dog if he has done damage to stock and claim of the owners house insurance

Edited May 16, 2015 by andrew f

[marshy pete]

If you license states "for protection of animals or humans" (mine does too) that covers you as long as you can prove that that's what you where doing. I would think that if you had proof of damage to your stock, ie pics and maybe a vets report confirming you'd be right, there is safety to think of, if the owner is in the area trying to catch the dog your actions may be thought of as irresponsible or even threatening but as long as you can prove damage is being done and you are taking reasonable care it is legal

 

Whether you want to or not is more of the question....

[mr smith]

Check what is actually conditioned,what you likely have is the condition to allow expanding ammo.Check that same condition is against your rifle as well.

[kyska]

Use a shotgun

[al4x]

Talk to your licensing officer and get the correct condition on there. It is one job where you have to be 100% on the right side of the law and is better if damage has been done and it's been reported before action is taken. Catch the dog in the act and with injured sheep and you will be fine.

[Dougy]

I had a rather lengthy conversation about this with Mike from BASC, its not as clearly cut as some make out. As al4x says in his last sentence, that about is tbe simplest explanation. Doing it safely to you, may not be seen to be as safe to the dog owner.

 

My situation was 3 lambs had been ragged around the back end and neck, they were put down by the vet, some ewe's had aborted and the bill handed to the dog owner.I did not get involved due to possibly getting into a legal case, The farmer was reimbursed the cost of his stock plus compensation from ghe dog owner. As for the dog, ? its not been seen since and niether has tbe owne.

[scotslad]

Some good sensible posts above,.

 

Prob best to check with ur org/Basc, then go to firearms and get ur ticket ammended with the right conditions, i also think mr smith is right that is often a common condition for ur ammo not ur rifles.

 

Generally when there is an article in ST or wotever on this the advice is only as a last resort and then use a shotgun makes life a lot simplier, legally

 

I know 1 farrmer who shot a villagers dog years ago and still regularly has gates left open, fences damaged and sharp objects left on his farm road, but to be fair think there is more to that case than a simple stock worrying incident and owner and farmer have 'issues/history'.

The farmer is a bit of a **** actually so wouldnae surprise me if he didnae have to shoot the dog and done it out of badness

 

But even if u are 100% correct to shoot it there can always be comeback

[Dirty Harry]

I've been involved in a few jobs where dogs have been shot for worrying livestock. Not once has the farmer been in trouble. Most police officers don't know much about firearms but they know farmers can shoot dogs worrying livestock. They don't care what with providing they have been humane and not hit anyone.

[CharlieT]

Rich1985.

 

Unless they are your sheep my advice is to keep out of it. It will only result in grief and most likely you will end up in court defending your actions. Remember that it will be up to you to and your defense counsel to justify your action. If you loose the dog's owner will be awarded damages against you. Are you insured for such ?

By law, anyone who shoots a dog must report the matter to the police, failure to do so is an offense, as is breaking the conditions of your FAC.

The police will take the details of the incident and are likely to check your FAC. Therefore, you must have the correct condition for your rifle, as has been stated the condition you refer to is the standard expanding ammo condition and has no bearing on what you can use your rifle for.

 

Let the farmer sort it out, they are his stock and it's his financial loss and he will have legal insurance. I would never, ever, ask or expect a third party to shoot someones dog for me.

[CharlieT]

I've been involved in a few jobs where dogs have been shot for worrying livestock. Not once has the farmer been in trouble. Most police officers don't know much about firearms but they know farmers can shoot dogs worrying livestock. They don't care what with providing they have been humane and not hit anyone.

 

The problem arises when the irate owner brings a civil action against you because his darling dog would'nt hurt a fly. It is then suprising how clued up they all become and how FAC conditions, caliber and independant evidence suddenly raise their ugly head in court.

 

Which is why I say, leave it to the farmer. As you say, the police will accept it from a farmer but as it's a civil matter occasionaly irate dog owners won't let it go.

[rich1985]

Rich1985.

 

Unless they are your sheep my advice is to keep out of it. It will only result in grief and most likely you will end up in court defending your actions. Remember that it will be up to you to and your defense counsel to justify your action. If you loose the dog's owner will be awarded damages against you. Are you insured for such ?

By law, anyone who shoots a dog must report the matter to the police, failure to do so is an offense, as is breaking the conditions of your FAC.

The police will take the details of the incident and are likely to check your FAC. Therefore, you must have the correct condition for your rifle, as has been stated the condition you refer to is the standard expanding ammo condition and has no bearing on what you can use your rifle for.

 

Let the farmer sort it out, they are his stock and it's his financial loss and he will have legal insurance. I would never, ever, ask or expect a third party to shoot someones dog for me.

 

There is a separate condition for my ammo this condition is in the additional conditions section, I would use a shot gun but if all have with me is a rifle then what then. The farmer and owner of the sheep lives a little way away and I would not just stand by and do nothing until he arrived. My FAC is up for renewal next month I will ask my FEO to explain the law etc to me and if nessercery get a separate condition added. It would really be a last resort but if I had to and the owner was not present I would shoot the offending dog.

[ordnance]

 

The farmer and owner of the sheep lives a little way away and I would not just stand by and do nothing until he arrived. My FAC is up for renewal next month I will ask my FEO to explain the law etc to me and if nessercery get a separate condition added. It would really be a last resort but if I had to and the owner was not present I would shoot the offending dog.

 

That's where we differ if they were my sheep then I would take whatever action necessary. If they were someone's sheep then I would see it as none of my business. And as others have pointed out it could be you that ends up in court trying to justify what you did at your expense.

 

 

Shooting a dog will inevitably trigger a police review of the farmer’s suitability to continue to hold firearms. They may revoke his certificate(s), and although such decisions can be appealed against, the outcome is often far from certain. Specialist legal representation is needed. Firearms licensing appeals are expensive and the costs are generally not recoverable even if successful.

Edited May 16, 2015 by ordnance

[kyska]

It's an interesting topic, my sheep are 'special', rare breed, two lines are from embryo transfer donors, the potential financial damage is huge, the dimensions are prodigy. I can't claim for years of loss.

 

If I had a dog ragging my ewes they'd get two full loads of BB.

 

The court case would be cheaper than the 'sunk' costs, and I'd happily be the martyr for the course.

[CharlieT]

It's an interesting topic, my sheep are 'special', rare breed, two lines are from embryo transfer donors, the potential financial damage is huge, the dimensions are prodigy. I can't claim for years of loss.

 

If I had a dog ragging my ewes they'd get two full loads of BB.

 

The court case would be cheaper than the 'sunk' costs, and I'd happily be the martyr for the course.

 

And herein lies the difference, like me you are the owner and as such the person suffering finaancial loss.

 

The owner of the dog receives protection under the law for his property, namely the dog, and killing or injuring his property could result in a charge for criminal damage. It would be upto the farmer to prove he had lawful excuse and that his actions were reasonable.

 

Not something I would suggest someone with permission to shoot on a farm would wish to get involved with.

 

I would suggest those posters saying "shoot it" read this article published in the Farers Weekly.............http://www.fwi.co.uk/farm-life/your-legal-rights-on-shooting-dogs-on-your-land.htm

[ordnance]

 

Not something I would suggest someone with permission to shoot on a farm would wish to get involved with.

Makes sense to me why would someone want to get involved. Do they think the farmer would get involved in helping them if it could end up with the farmer losing their firearms going to court and losing money.

 

I caught the owner and said if needs be I would shoot the dog if harm was done to stock or I felt harm was going to be done to stock

 

You are lucky the owner didn't go to the police and report you for threatening to shoot their dog. They could make all sorts of accusations. Stopped and threatened by armed man etc.

Edited May 16, 2015 by ordnance

[rich1985]

I was not armed when I approched the owner and I was polite, jus pointed out to them what could happen, to be fair I think they knew the score as they dint get arsey they just took in what I said and went. The chap that owns the sheep I am very good friends with and I do have permission to shoot his land as well as the land where the sheep are kept and he always is willing to help me out with feeding etc if I ask him I don't think me just standing there and watching while his lambs are slaughtered by a dog would go down well and I'm not the sort of chap to do nothing. I very much dought a situation would occur but just wanted to know where I stood if a situation did occur. When I went done my trap round last night the farmer has put some big notices on the gates stating dogs found in the sheep will be shot, so I think this may well work. Thanks

[Dirty Harry]

I think it's black and white. It's only when you throw in lots of what if's and maybe's it becomes grey.

If you catch a dog worrying livestock and you shoot it its job done.

If the owner complains your answer is the dog was worrying livestock so I shot it. If that's what happened and that's what you saw then a court would struggle to find against you unless there was evidence what you were saying was not the truth.

[Fisheruk]

It is perfectly legal to shoot a dog which is worrying sheep. If you use a shotgun you do not need any condition.

If you use a rifle you need to have a condition that will allow you to use it to kill your target species.

Some time ago I was asked to assist where a couple Bull Mastifs has attacked a flock of sheep. First task was to dispatch the damaged sheep (19) in all. Value to farmer circa £2000, by the way I already had humane dispatch on my ticket although I didn't use the rifle to dispatch in this instant.

Then to deal with dogs, which by then had run off.

A phone call to the Firearms Dept and discussed the problem. Firstly he said use the shotgun. I didn't want to get within range of a wild Mastif with the shotgun although I used BB loads to dispatch the sheep.

FEO agreed and emailed me the revised condition for ALQ, within two hours. First class service.

Then I was able to stake out the flock to protect it with my .223.

I would have no problem doing it again if the need arose. Having seen the damage dogs can do to sheep, ripping their bellies out it is just necessary. Any problem is with the dog owners not controlling their dogs properly.

[rich1985]

I think it's black and white. It's only when you throw in lots of what if's and maybe's it becomes grey.

If you catch a dog worrying livestock and you shoot it its job done.

If the owner complains your answer is the dog was worrying livestock so I shot it. If that's what happened and that's what you saw then a court would struggle to find against you unless there was evidence what you were saying was not the truth.

It is perfectly legal to shoot a dog which is worrying sheep. If you use a shotgun you do not need any condition.

If you use a rifle you need to have a condition that will allow you to use it to kill your target species.

Some time ago I was asked to assist where a couple Bull Mastifs has attacked a flock of sheep. First task was to dispatch the damaged sheep (19) in all. Value to farmer circa £2000, by the way I already had humane dispatch on my ticket although I didn't use the rifle to dispatch in this instant.

Then to deal with dogs, which by then had run off.

A phone call to the Firearms Dept and discussed the problem. Firstly he said use the shotgun. I didn't want to get within range of a wild Mastif with the shotgun although I used BB loads to dispatch the sheep.

FEO agreed and emailed me the revised condition for ALQ, within two hours. First class service.

Then I was able to stake out the flock to protect it with my .223.

I would have no problem doing it again if the need arose. Having seen the damage dogs can do to sheep, ripping their bellies out it is just necessary. Any problem is with the dog owners not controlling their dogs properly.

Thank you and thank you. Good advise and my question answered.

[scotslad]

Not wanting to confuse matters but but pretty sure if dog has actually stopped attacking sheep esp if has left field u cannot legally shoot it unless u think ur stock is in danger again, (u could not track and shoot them elsewhere) So u could possibly argue since u had time to PTS the sheep before u went looking for the dogs stock was not in immediate danger (not saying the dogs don't deserve to be shot) but just far more of a grey area

 

Best advice would be to phone Basc up and get advice straight from source, ask any questions u have,make sure u understand 100% wot u can and cannae do. Then speak to feo and get ur ticket ammended if needed (possiby a letter from farmer and landowner where sheep grazing.)

 

The best advice esp since ur not the farmer is try to not get involved if u can, but it is slightly different if farmer lives some distance away so is not on hand to watch the flock or deal with the problem

It really should be a last resort thou and even if u were 100% legal doing it u may suffer ur motor vanadlised, gates left open etc afterwards if owner does not take it well

[rich1985]

Not wanting to confuse matters but but pretty sure if dog has actually stopped attacking sheep esp if has left field u cannot legally shoot it unless u think ur stock is in danger again, (u could not track and shoot them elsewhere) So u could possibly argue since u had time to PTS the sheep before u went looking for the dogs stock was not in immediate danger (not saying the dogs don't deserve to be shot) but just far more of a grey area

 

Best advice would be to phone Basc up and get advice straight from source, ask any questions u have,make sure u understand 100% wot u can and cannae do. Then speak to feo and get ur ticket ammended if needed (possiby a letter from farmer and landowner where sheep grazing.)

 

The best advice esp since ur not the farmer is try to not get involved if u can, but it is slightly different if farmer lives some distance away so is not on hand to watch the flock or deal with the problem

It really should be a last resort thou and even if u were 100% legal doing it u may suffer ur motor vanadlised, gates left open etc afterwards if owner does not take it well

I would only get involved if dog was in with the sheep if it isn't i wouldn't get involved, I will make some phone calls in the week, and my FAC is up for renewal soon so will speak to FEO. Thanks aging guys.

[Bobby199]

So another question, dog threatening horses?

Are they not still livestock!

 

But also if you felt threatened by a dog on your land, how would that be viewed?

[rich1985]

I am unsure on this but if a dog attacked me I would shoot it full stop. What bout a pen of pheasant, partridge or chickens? All very grey I feel.

[ordnance]

 

I think it's black and white. It's only when you throw in lots of what if's and maybe's it becomes grey.

If you catch a dog worrying livestock and you shoot it its job done.

If the owner complains your answer is the dog was worrying livestock so I shot it. If that's what happened and that's what you saw then a court would struggle to find against you unless there was evidence what you were saying was not the truth

There was a link to an article in farming weekly, contradicting and advising that it's not as black and white as the post above suggests. Yet you post thanking them for good advice, do you not think the farming weekly advice would be better informed. Some people just take onboard the advice they want to hear.

 

 

Thank you and thank you. Good advice and my question answered.

 

 

I was not armed when I approched the owner and I was polite, jus pointed out to them what could happen, to be fair I think they knew the score as they dint get arsey they just took in what I said and went

I would not see someone coming up to me and threatening to shoot my dog as polite or friendly. Your might not have being armed but you were implying that you had access to firearms and would use it to shoot their dog. It makes no difference to me one way or another, but if it was me knowing the way the police in England take a dim view of any firearms related issues I would not want the attention and scrutiny from the police.

 

I was not armed when I approched the owner and I was polite, jus pointed out to them what could happen

 

That's not quite the way you put it in your original post bellow.

 

 

 

 

I caught the owner and said if needs be I would shoot the dog if harm was done to stock or I felt harm was going to be done to stock.

Edited May 17, 2015 by ordnance