Legal Highs

[evo]

I will ask again, where is this in this thread? I've not seen anyone saying they do drugs?!

then you have not read this thread have you,

 

check out post 63, you are obviously blind

 

here is what was stated if you cant be bothered looking

 

" I have always taken drugs on an occasional recreational basis including speed, hash, acid, mushrooms and ecstacy.

 

are you happy now

Edited May 31, 2015 by evo

[LondonLuke]

then you have not read this thread have you,

 

check out post 63, you are obviously blind

 

here is what was stated if you cant be bothered looking

 

" I have always taken drugs on an occasional recreational basis including speed, hash, acid, mushrooms and ecstacy.

 

are you happy now

Thank you for highlighting this in your usual calm manner.

[pimpkiller]

A bit of Cannabis will help your eyesight apparently

[srspower]

It does seem that this debate has become a bit of a cluster **** (I can do the censorship myself). If it is to continue can I suggest a specific topic to argue about? for example:-

 

1. Should cannabis be illegal or not?

2. Should we legalise/decriminalise all drugs and treat them as a health problem or not?

etc

 

If yes why? If not why? This thread is in dire need of sticking to a specific subtopic of the whole drug debate.

Edited May 31, 2015 by srspower

[Catweazle]

I know a man who takes prescription Morphine, he is also a FAC holder and very regular shooter, as well as a stable and decent man. He decides when to take it, when pain becomes too bad.

 

Does the fact that he takes Morphine mean he is not fit to hold a FAC ? It hasn't turned him into a homicidal maniac - in fact you'd be hard pressed to find a more even-tempered man despite his health problems.

 

How do the members who have stated they would have nothing to do with a drug user feel about this ? I'm curious to know if it's the drugs that they object to, or the fact that they have been obtained illegally.

[keg]

Morphine is a legally prescribable drug. The legal highs and other drugs are unctroled and can be mixed with anything.

 

My mum was on Morphine when she had lung and bowel cancer, helped her a lot with pain relief but can become addictive.

[overandunder2012]

99.9% of those that like a drink, do so responsibly and with no ill effect to themselves or others, 99.9% of those that take DRUGS end up as smack heads with all the ills the title brings.

 

KW

total rubbish get educated mate, alcohol kills thousands

[Yellow Bear]

total rubbish get educated mate, alcohol kills thousands

sadly true, however given that the uk population is circa 64 million - working on the principal that about half like a drink now and then, 0.1 of a percent is 32000, even if the figure was only a quarter this would give 16000. The actual figure for 2013 was about 8500.. This is less than .002% of the population.

 

Isn't education a wonderful thing - the death rate as a percentage of "participating" adults with respect to alcohol is a mere fraction of that with respect to illegal substances but is still a death rate. Making these "highs" legal would not solve the problem as those producing would not make the high profits so would produce more illegal substances to increase profit.

[overandunder2012]

sadly true, however given that the uk population is circa 64 million - working on the principal that about half like a drink now and then, 0.1 of a percent is 32000, even if the figure was only a quarter this would give 16000. The actual figure for 2013 was about 8500.. This is less than .002% of the population.

 

Isn't education a wonderful thing - the death rate as a percentage of "participating" adults with respect to alcohol is a mere fraction of that with respect to illegal substances but is still a death rate. Making these "highs" legal would not solve the problem as those producing would not make the high profits so would produce more illegal substances to increase profit.

you couldn't even begin to record how many alcohol related deaths there have been there's been so many. the only reason its legal is the money it generates

[keg]

And we know what's in it which we don't with illegal drugs....

 

Very well put Yellow Bear.

[grrclark]

I did say I wasn't going to post on this thread again, but I have done as it is important to differentiate between illegal drugs.

 

Illegal drugs is too wide a catch all term. Herbal cannabis is illegal, but there are zero recorded deaths anywhere in the world ever due to cannabis toxicity.

 

Some drugs are dreadful things with alarmingly high mortality statistics attributed to them including humble paracetamol and ibuprofen. I personally know two people that have died due to a perforated gut taking ibuprofen.

 

If we are going to debate about illegal drugs then it is hugely important to differentiate, otherwise we just perpetuate ignorance.

 

Heroin, crack cocaine, crystal meth all very bad, cocaine is less harmful on the individual but desperately damaging to the environment, herbal cannabis has less detrimental health issues than cows milk and peanuts.

[grrclark]

And we know what's in it which we don't with illegal drugs....

 

Very well put Yellow Bear.

Do we really, what about all the people that are happy to buy mega cheap booze that they think is a great deal that is counterfeit and quite often methanol?

 

Some surveys suggest that 20% of those that purchase alcohol buy counterfeit booze, other surveys suggest that counterfeit alcohol is sold in as many as 25% of licensed outlets in parts of the country.

 

Incidentally the same can be said for counterfeit tobacco that can also be full of extremely nasty chemicals.

 

As with most things in life we should never take things at face value.

[keg]

I would agree Grr, i am talking about proper branded spirits or beer that you would buy in a pub or supermarket.

 

You are taking your life in your hands with fake booze and fags same as you are with drugs and yes, when i am posting, i am specifically talking about illegal drugs.

 

I agree with many of your posts on here, speaking sense as usual

[grrclark]

I do appreciate that you were talking about branded spirits from reputable shops, alarmingly so was I. This isn't cheap booze sold out of the back of a van where you might be suspicious.

 

A lot of people see cheap deals in corner shops that are licensed and stock legitimate booze and buy on price alone. Glens vodka is one of the most common, it is already a cheaper vodka so an extra low price isn't very suspicious. The same is true for a lot of wines as well.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/deadly-fake-vodka-made-from-antifreeze-found-on-sale-across-britain-ahead-of-new-year-9947835.html

[motty]

I did say I wasn't going to post on this thread again, but I have done as it is important to differentiate between illegal drugs.

 

Illegal drugs is too wide a catch all term. Herbal cannabis is illegal, but there are zero recorded deaths anywhere in the world ever due to cannabis toxicity.

 

Some drugs are dreadful things with alarmingly high mortality statistics attributed to them including humble paracetamol and ibuprofen. I personally know two people that have died due to a perforated gut taking ibuprofen.

 

If we are going to debate about illegal drugs then it is hugely important to differentiate, otherwise we just perpetuate ignorance.

 

Heroin, crack cocaine, crystal meth all very bad, cocaine is less harmful on the individual but desperately damaging to the environment, herbal cannabis has less detrimental health issues than cows milk and peanuts.

I do enjoy reading your educated and very well constructed posts. Unlike many who have contributed to this thread, you are capable of having a reasoned debate.

Again - as with most of your posts - the above makes perfect sense to me. It unfortunately would seem like making others see this would be akin to banging your head against a brick wall.

[evo]

something for those that say cannabis is harmless

 

Cannabis can mess with your mind
Cannabis can mess with your mind and with your mood. It can disturb your sleep and can make you depressed. Some will become anxious, panicky, and even aggressive. You might see or hear things which are not there (known as hallucinations) which may be frightening. For some people, cannabis causes hours or even days of anxiety, paranoia, delusions and hallucinations that usually only settles down after the cannabis is stopped.

• Cannabis can freak you out - it can cause feelings of anxiety, suspicion, panic and paranoia.

• For people with illnesses such as schizophrenia, cannabis can cause a serious relapse.
  
• Regular cannabis use is known to be associated with an increase in the risk of later developing psychotic illnesses including schizophrenia; and if you have a family background of mental illness, you may also have an increased risk.
  
• Cannabis can affect the way the brain works. Regular, heavy use makes it difficult to learn and concentrate and research has linked cannabis use to poor exam results. This is a potentially serious risk if you’re young, when the brain is still developing. People who take a lot of cannabis can also find they lack motivation.

• A recent review of cannabis research published in the British Medical Journal found those driving under the influence of cannabis had nearly double the risk of a crash.

Cannabis can mess with your body.

• Tobacco and cannabis share some of the same chemical 'nasties', so, like smoking tobacco, smoking cannabis can make asthma worse, can cause wheezing in people without asthma and can even lead to lung cancer.
  
• When people mix cannabis with tobacco they're also taking on all the risks associated with smoking tobacco, which can range from coughs and chest infections to cancer or heart disease.

• It can increase the heart rate and affect blood pressure, which can be especially harmful for those with heart disease.

• It is reported that frequent use of cannabis may affect fertility. It can cut a man's sperm count and can suppress ovulation in women.

• If you’re pregnant, smoking cannabis may increase the risk of your baby being born smaller than expected.

What is the effect of mixing cannabis and alcohol?

Mixing cannabis with alcohol can have particularly serious consequences - the accident rate is 16 times higher than for cannabis or alcohol alone.

 

 

and now for the law

 

Cannabis and the law

• Cannabis is a Class B drug – it’s illegal to have for yourself, give away or sell.

• Possession is illegal whatever you’re using it for, including pain relief. The penalty is up to five years in jail.

• Supplying someone else can get you fourteen years and an unlimited fine.

• Supplying your mates, even if you give it away, is also considered ‘supplying’ under the law.

What if you're caught with cannabis?

If the Police catch you with cannabis, they’ll always take some action. This could be a warning, a reprimand, a formal caution, a fixed penalty or an arrest and possible conviction.

A conviction for a drug-related offence could have a pretty serious impact. It can stop you visiting certain countries – for example the United States – and limit the types of jobs you can apply for.

Did you know?

• Like drinking and driving, driving when high is illegal – and you can still be unfit to drive the day after smoking cannabis. You can get a heavy fine, be disqualified from driving or even go to prison.
• Allowing other people to supply drugs in your house or any other premises is illegal. If the police catch people supplying illegal drugs in a club they can potentially prosecute the landlord, club owner or any person concerned in the management of the premises.

and some more for those that think cannabis is harmless

 

THE HARMFUL EFFECTS OF MARIJUANA

Photo credits: Alamy

 

The immediate effects of taking marijuana include rapid heart beat, disorientation, lack of physical coordination, often followed by depression or sleepiness. Some users suffer panic attacks or anxiety.

But the problem does not end there. According to scientific studies, the active ingredient in cannabis, THC, remains in the body for weeks or longer.

Marijuana smoke contains 50% to 70% more cancer-causing substances than tobacco smoke. One major research study reported that a single cannabis joint could cause as much damage to the lungs as up to five regular cigarettes smoked one after another. Long-time joint smokers often suffer from bronchitis, an inflammation of the respiratory tract.

The drug can affect more than your physical health. Studies in Australia in 2008 linked years of heavy marijuana use to brain abnormalities. This is backed up by earlier research on the long-term effects of marijuana, which indicate changes in the brain similar to those caused by long-term abuse of other major drugs. And a number of studies have shown a connection between continued marijuana use and psychosis.

 

Marijuana changes the structure of sperm cells, deforming them. Thus even small amounts of marijuana can cause temporary sterility in men. Marijuana use can upset a woman’s menstrual cycle.

Studies show that the mental functions of people who have smoked a lot of marijuana tend to be diminished. The THC in cannabis disrupts nerve cells in the brain affecting memory.

Cannabis is one of the few drugs which causes abnormal cell division which leads to severe hereditary defects. A pregnant woman who regularly smokes marijuana or hashish may give birth prematurely to an undersized, underweight baby. Over the last ten years, many children of marijuana users have been born with reduced initiative and lessened abilities to concentrate and pursue life goals. Studies also suggest that prenatal (before birth) use of the drug may result in birth defects, mental abnormalities and increased risk of leukemia1 in children.

Edited June 1, 2015 by evo

[Zenduri]

99.9% of those that like a drink, do so responsibly and with no ill effect to themselves or others, 99.9% of those that take DRUGS end up as smack heads with all the ills the title brings.

 

KW

 

As much as i don't like to argue that's a true Daily Mail headline mate.

 

People have this misconception that the amount they drink is fine when technically you have a rather large proportion of functioning alcoholics who think its normal to polish off a few drinks when they get home from work. These are the hidden problems.

 

The flip side is there are the obvious smack heads who are a mess but there are functioning drug users. I'm not saying drugs are good in any sense but to put alcohol on such a high praise and drugs on such a bad one is so wrong and ill informed.

 

Sadly i work in an office environment and i can assure you of the several hundred people who work in my office there are a high number of alcohol abusers as well as coke fiends and pill heads. One guy i worked with started to get routinely messed up on the legal high version of cocaine. He ended up going severly off the rails to the point they tried to force him into a drugs test but the union he was in managed to save him as he admitted to me he would fail and i knew he would. He's managed to clean himself up now and sort his life out but the point is there are more drug and alcohol abusers than you think..... and you most likely know one or two.

[Vince Green]

What I think is being missed is that booze can be bought in Tesco, as much as I hate booze that makes it a known substance, not something made in a back room in some squat, and the checkout girl is not likely to have a criminal record and be carrying a knife. I am also not likely to end up in debt to the checkout girl who then makes me deal the stuff myself to cover the debt.

[OJW]

We are loosing "the war on drugs" fighting their use in the conventional way. It's a popular political standpoint and nothing more. Look at how well alcohol Prohibition in the United States worked? I think that drug addiction should be treated as a health issue and not a Criminal one and the only way to achieve this is through the legalisation of some certain drugs. I drink socially but I don't take drugs and I would prefer most drugs to remain illegal if criminalising them actually worked.

 

While drugs are continually demonised and treated as a criminal matter those most vulnerable in society are the ones pushed further onto the fringes, forced to hide what they are experimenting with, being pushed towards bad company and "role models" and given criminal records that stunt any potential career development they may have had. It's not the multinational City firms who get raided, the police don't hang around the exits of Bank tube station with sniffer dogs arresting City high flyers with pockets full of Coke. And what if they did, or if the affluent business man or movie star realises he has a problem? They check into rehab and have their problem treated as a health issue to either mitigate a sentence or get sorted out - while those less well off sit in cells meeting more people who endorse the use of drugs and are angry with the way they have been treated, not a technique I think helps with overcoming any addiction.

 

If some drugs were legalised, It's not like they would be sold over the counter. They would be taxed and monitored by doctors or sold in specialised pharmacies or shops; made as safe as possible (In the ironic way cigarets and alcohol are made as safe as possible). The revenue made in taxes would bolster the funding for the NHS and I'm sure would cover the cost of treating those in society who do choose to abuse the now legal highs.

 

Is Cannabis a gateway drug? Could be, but I've seen far more people try their first line of Cocaine while drunk on a night out than I have heard of Cannabis users turning to Heroin. I know several people who are now shadows of their former selves due to smoking way too much skunk but many have stopped and non of them have turned to Heroin. I have 26 year old cousins from Amsterdam, I asked if they enjoy smoking weed? The answer was no, tried it and didn't like it. In exactly the same way people in the UK may try cigarets and not like them. They didn't then go onto try harder drugs and smoking pot in Holland isn't seen in an overly glamorised light by the young as it was here when I was a young teenager.

 

What crimes would the drug dealers turn to next? Well I don't think most drug dealers in the UK are career criminals so to speak, the big dogs importing the stuff don't get caught, it's again the average joe on the street corner who gets locked up and immediately replaced. I would argue that legalisation would be felt (at least financially) by those much higher up the chain and if you take away that revenue stream they have far less money to invest in other criminal activities like people trafficking, importing weapons and terrorism.

 

I'd also just like to offer my sympathy to those on here who have suffered either directly or indirectly though drug abuse. I don't begrudge anyone having strong feelings on this topic. I don't advocate the use of drugs at all, but I think we need to adapt the way we deal with them in society.

[Scully]

We are loosing "the war on drugs" fighting their use in the conventional way. It's a popular political standpoint and nothing more. Look at how well alcohol Prohibition in the United States worked? I think that drug addiction should be treated as a health issue and not a Criminal one and the only way to achieve this is through the legalisation of some certain drugs. I drink socially but I don't take drugs and I would prefer most drugs to remain illegal if criminalising them actually worked.

 

While drugs are continually demonised and treated as a criminal matter those most vulnerable in society are the ones pushed further onto the fringes, forced to hide what they are experimenting with, being pushed towards bad company and "role models" and given criminal records that stunt any potential career development they may have had. It's not the multinational City firms who get raided, the police don't hang around the exits of Bank tube station with sniffer dogs arresting City high flyers with pockets full of Coke. And what if they did, or if the affluent business man or movie star realises he has a problem? They check into rehab and have their problem treated as a health issue to either mitigate a sentence or get sorted out - while those less well off sit in cells meeting more people who endorse the use of drugs and are angry with the way they have been treated, not a technique I think helps with overcoming any addiction.

 

If some drugs were legalised, It's not like they would be sold over the counter. They would be taxed and monitored by doctors or sold in specialised pharmacies or shops; made as safe as possible (In the ironic way cigarets and alcohol are made as safe as possible). The revenue made in taxes would bolster the funding for the NHS and I'm sure would cover the cost of treating those in society who do choose to abuse the now legal highs.

 

Is Cannabis a gateway drug? Could be, but I've seen far more people try their first line of Cocaine while drunk on a night out than I have heard of Cannabis users turning to Heroin. I know several people who are now shadows of their former selves due to smoking way too much skunk but many have stopped and non of them have turned to Heroin. I have 26 year old cousins from Amsterdam, I asked if they enjoy smoking weed? The answer was no, tried it and didn't like it. In exactly the same way people in the UK may try cigarets and not like them. They didn't then go onto try harder drugs and smoking pot in Holland isn't seen in an overly glamorised light by the young as it was here when I was a young teenager.

 

What crimes would the drug dealers turn to next? Well I don't think most drug dealers in the UK are career criminals so to speak, the big dogs importing the stuff don't get caught, it's again the average joe on the street corner who gets locked up and immediately replaced. I would argue that legalisation would be felt (at least financially) by those much higher up the chain and if you take away that revenue stream they have far less money to invest in other criminal activities like people trafficking, importing weapons and terrorism.

 

I'd also just like to offer my sympathy to those on here who have suffered either directly or indirectly though drug abuse. I don't begrudge anyone having strong feelings on this topic. I don't advocate the use of drugs at all, but I think we need to adapt the way we deal with them in society.

Excellent post.

[Penelope]

Indeed. I think grrclark's, OJW's post on the subject have been the most erudite so far.

 

Excellent post.

[Clint1]

As someone who worked in the so-called Justice system for 20 years in various iterations, I can state unequivocally that by far the worst people to deal with are drunks aka ****-heads. Apart from one or two occasions with combinations involving booze, stoners/sniffers/needle jockeys/pill poppers are easy to handle and generally compliant.

At the end of the day, Justice is all about making careers and fortunes for a privileged few.

[keg]

Really, i thought it was about getting criminals off the street.

[Vince Green]

We are loosing "the war on drugs" fighting their use in the conventional way. It's a popular political standpoint and nothing more. Look at how well alcohol Prohibition in the United States worked? I think that drug addiction should be treated as a health issue and not a Criminal one and the only way to achieve this is through the legalisation of some certain drugs. I drink socially but I don't take drugs and I would prefer most drugs to remain illegal if criminalising them actually worked.

 

While drugs are continually demonised and treated as a criminal matter those most vulnerable in society are the ones pushed further onto the fringes, forced to hide what they are experimenting with, being pushed towards bad company and "role models" and given criminal records that stunt any potential career development they may have had. It's not the multinational City firms who get raided, the police don't hang around the exits of Bank tube station with sniffer dogs arresting City high flyers with pockets full of Coke. And what if they did, or if the affluent business man or movie star realises he has a problem? They check into rehab and have their problem treated as a health issue to either mitigate a sentence or get sorted out - while those less well off sit in cells meeting more people who endorse the use of drugs and are angry with the way they have been treated, not a technique I think helps with overcoming any addiction.

 

If some drugs were legalised, It's not like they would be sold over the counter. They would be taxed and monitored by doctors or sold in specialised pharmacies or shops; made as safe as possible (In the ironic way cigarets and alcohol are made as safe as possible). The revenue made in taxes would bolster the funding for the NHS and I'm sure would cover the cost of treating those in society who do choose to abuse the now legal highs.

 

Is Cannabis a gateway drug? Could be, but I've seen far more people try their first line of Cocaine while drunk on a night out than I have heard of Cannabis users turning to Heroin. I know several people who are now shadows of their former selves due to smoking way too much skunk but many have stopped and non of them have turned to Heroin. I have 26 year old cousins from Amsterdam, I asked if they enjoy smoking weed? The answer was no, tried it and didn't like it. In exactly the same way people in the UK may try cigarets and not like them. They didn't then go onto try harder drugs and smoking pot in Holland isn't seen in an overly glamorised light by the young as it was here when I was a young teenager.

 

What crimes would the drug dealers turn to next? Well I don't think most drug dealers in the UK are career criminals so to speak, the big dogs importing the stuff don't get caught, it's again the average joe on the street corner who gets locked up and immediately replaced. I would argue that legalisation would be felt (at least financially) by those much higher up the chain and if you take away that revenue stream they have far less money to invest in other criminal activities like people trafficking, importing weapons and terrorism.

 

I'd also just like to offer my sympathy to those on here who have suffered either directly or indirectly though drug abuse. I don't begrudge anyone having strong feelings on this topic. I don't advocate the use of drugs at all, but I think we need to adapt the way we deal with them in society.

 

Its not so much that cannabis is a gateway drug as the fact that the people you probably get it from are keen to lead you / trick you down the path to heavier and more expensive substances. Often handing out freebies etc to reel you in.

[Danger-Mouse]

"Its not so much that cannabis is a gateway drug as the fact that the people you probably get it from are keen to lead you / trick you down the path to heavier and more expensive substances. Often handing out freebies etc to reel you in."

 

I`m sorry but you`ve been reading too many sensasionalist newspaper articles or you`re still believing what you saw on Grange Hill as a kid.

 

The majority of dealers who sell cannabis are smokers themselves.They buy a few ounces, sell smaller amounts at a slightly inflated price and after they`ve made their money back or maybe a small profit they have enough weed left for themselves to smoke until the next time they buy.

 

Most of them deal exclusively in cannabis because they know as a class B drug the penalties for being caught with it are considerably less than being caught dealing class A drugs. If they do sell anything alongside it it will only be in small amounts and will most likely be a bit of coke or speed or perhaps a few ecstasy pills.

 

I`ve never known anyone deal in cannabis and heroin or crack at the same time. And I`ve never known a dealer to hand out free samples, other than offering to share a spliff whilst you`re there.