The Tube strike

[shaun4860]

I don't think you could pay me enough to go back to night shifts. The only good shift pattern we ever got onto was 4 on 4 off, but even that involved 4 x 12 hour night shifts.

We were contracted for 48 hours a week, days/nights/twilights.

 

Stockton bakery drivers were the same.

 

They approached management to go to a 4 on 4 off system, they agreed as all the runs were covered and it was still 48 hours.

 

We wanted the same rather than the 4 from 6 we were doing which could have been 2 on, 1 off 2 on 3 off, all manner of mix ups.

 

We were told no, as we wouldn't be working enough hours???

 

They never explained it, just point blank refused.

 

Now the rub.

 

Both Newcastle (our bakery) and Stockton had the same general manager and same transport manager,

 

So it was ok for them but not us?

 

But there again the general manager hated us with a vengeance.

 

Sad man :(

 

[Vince Green]

 

 

Again, the drivers are entitled to negociate their working lives. They, not you, me or the public have the right to dictate to them what they must do.

 

 

Thats not strictly true actually, Their contract of employment has all the usual clauses about hours being at the discretion of the employer and they agreed to that when they joined.

[Scully]

We were contracted for 48 hours a week, days/nights/twilights.

 

Stockton bakery drivers were the same.

 

They approached management to go to a 4 on 4 off system, they agreed as all the runs were covered and it was still 48 hours.

 

We wanted the same rather than the 4 from 6 we were doing which could have been 2 on, 1 off 2 on 3 off, all manner of mix ups.

 

We were told no, as we wouldn't be working enough hours???

 

They never explained it, just point blank refused.

 

Now the rub.

 

Both Newcastle (our bakery) and Stockton had the same general manager and same transport manager,

 

So it was ok for them but not us?

 

But there again the general manager hated us with a vengeance.

 

Sad man :(

 

When I first started at the Dairy I was off Fri Sat Sun, then worked a full eek and had the Tues off, then another week and Wed off, and so on, so we had one weekend in 6 off, but it was all day shifts, no nights.

I then moved to another dept' which involved an early shift and a late shift but no nights, and every other weekend off, which was great. Then management decided to amalgamate that dept' with another which worked shifts including nights, and because the existing workforce were greedy ******* they had the shift rota wrong way round as it meant higher shift premiums, so we would have off Sat, Sun, Mon, then back in on 8 hour nights 'til Sat Sun Mon which were 12 hour nights, then a quick change over which meant finishing at 6 a.m. and back in at 2pm the same day to get on to 2-10 shift, then weekend off again. To cover holidays you could sometimes end up doing two quick change overs to get from nights onto 12 hour days and no days off for 4 weeks. Abysmal, and this is what the workforce voted for!

4 on 4 off was superb, then after 12 years an Irish company bought the factory and made us all redundant. But by then the job wasn't worth having anyhow. The money was great but management were forcing more and more responsibility onto the same number of staff, until we all knew each others jobs inside out; and they would think nothing of ringing anyone up who had finished a night shift 3 hours ago and ask them to cover for someone who had rung in sick. You weren't forced to go of course, but they expected you to. Health and safety?

My Dad and twin brother spent their entire working lives there since leaving the army in 1947.

[Pistol p]

They seem like a bunch of soft liabilities.

[Lord Geordie]

I would be happy to do it at £48.999 and save the public some money

[achosenman]

Thats not strictly true actually, Their contract of employment has all the usual clauses about hours being at the discretion of the employer and they agreed to that when they joined.

 

They have union recognition and a collective bargaining agreement. Unless you have a contract sat on your desk you cannot know what their employment contract stipulates.

 

It seems to me the most vocal anti unions commentators are the people who aren't in a union, or don't need one. Working for a small employer is easy, you just sit down and chat and sort things out. A multi billion pound international company with many many thousands of employees is a different beast. Without the collective bargaining agreements the management would be in constant negotiations.

 

The large companies want the unions and the agreements. It makes their life easier and contrary to popular perceptions, disagreement is not the norm.

 

Atb

[scutt]

I don't love unions but stop and think what would your T and C's be like without them better or worse ? Hands up all you company directors who think the biggest drain on there profits are the people who work for them !!

[Penelope]

More misery for the travelling public trying to get to work.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-33866704

[LondonLuke]

This about sums it up for me

 

Driving a tube is easy and not worth £50,000 a year, let's sack them all...or so a The Telegraph says

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11786668/Driving-a-Tube-is-easy-and-not-worth-50000-a-year.-Lets-sack-the-lot-of-them.html

Edited August 11, 2015 by LondonLuke

[achosenman]

I suppose £50,000 sounds a lot. But PAYE makes that figure far less stunning than you'd think. Not to mention living in or around London.

 

My girlfriend is a self employed Barber in the southeast. Her tax returns were £54,000 reduced to well below the basic rate after the accountant had finished with it.

 

Public opinion has no problem with footballers salaries from the popularity of the game. The obscene amounts from the great and the good don't seem to phase them either, judging from the box office takings that Hollywood prise from the masses year after year. A self employed plumber gets more take home pay than that after fiddling his books. My brother in law is in the trade in London so I know the truth.

 

Having sat with a bunch of journalistss from a bevy of the newspapers waiting for a slot to fly them over the Piper Alpha disaster for a photo opportunity, I got to hear about their antics. If the public got a whiff they'd be lynched.

 

Thankfully for everyone, remuneration is not decided by popular vote. Otherwise we'd all be very rich, or very poor...I can't decide.

 

Atb

Edited August 12, 2015 by achosenman

[LondonLuke]

I suppose £50,000 sounds a lot. But PAYE makes that figure far less stunning than you'd think. Not to mention living in or around London.

 

My girlfriend is a self employed Barber in the southeast. Her tax returns were £54,000 reduced to well below the basic rate after the accountant had finished with it.

 

Public opinion has no problem with footballers salaries from the popularity of the game. The obscene amounts from the great and the good don't seem to phase them either, judging from the box office takings that Hollywood prise from the masses year after year. A self employed plumber gets more take home pay than that after fiddling his books. My brother in law is in the trade in London so I know the truth.

 

Having sat with a bunch of journalistss from a bevy of the newspapers waiting for a slot to fly them over the Piper Alpha disaster for a photo opportunity I got to hear about their antics. If the public got a whiff they'd be lynched.

 

Thankfully for everyone, remuneration is not decided by popular vote. Otherwise we,d all be very rich, or very poor...I can't decide.

 

Atb

Whilst there is some truth to what you say I think choosing two people who are self employed as a comparison is slightly silly - tube drivers are not self employed, are on a fixed guaranteed salary, and have job security, pension etc. Both barber and plumber will have trained for years to be expert enough to set up and will have done so on a very low apprentice wage.

 

The tube drivers have all the advantages of a salaried job listed above as well as being able to train in a matter of weeks starting on a high salary from day one. Whilst we can argue that £50,000 isn't a super high London salary - as someon who lives in London I guarantee you there are a lot of people doing a lot more for a lot less and still surviving - though this isn't really the argument. For me the tube drivers are paid more than they should be for their role.

Edited August 12, 2015 by LondonLuke

[achosenman]

I can see your point to a degree.

 

However it seems to me we all make choices in life. Some are better than others. Eg, I was ridiculed for learning to fly by my muckers in the Army. I was ridiculed for then leaving. I was ridiculed for going to the US to get cheap flying hours. I was ridiculed for paying for my instructors rating. I was ridiculed for then resigning and blowing my savings and a bank loan on getting an ATPL. After landing my first commercial job on a King Air the ridicule strangely stopped. Now it seems I was just lucky...mmmmm.

 

It seems to me some like to take the path of least resistance in life, then begrudge those who take a different path. If the drivers got themselves a good deal, good on them. I'll not begrudge them seemingly through envy or spite.

 

Atb

Edited August 12, 2015 by achosenman

[LondonLuke]

I can see your point to a degree.

 

However it seems to me we all make choices in life. Some are better than others. Eg, I was ridiculed for learning to fly by my muckers in the Army. I was ridiculed for then leaving. I was ridiculed for going to the US to get cheap flying hours. I was ridiculed for paying for my instructors rating. I was ridiculed for then resigning and blowing my savings and a bank loan on getting an ATPL. After landing my first commercial job on a King Air the ridicule strangely stopped. Now it seems I was just lucky...mmmmm.

 

It seems to me some like to take the path of least resistance in life, then begrudge those who take a different path. If the drivers got themselves a good deal, good on them. I'll not begrudge them seemingly through envy or spite.

 

Atb

I don't begrudge them at all - it makes no diffrence to me as I'm not even a tube user, those friends of mine that earn less than them are fuming though. However I do feel that their striking is ridiculous and not the way to do with the situation. If the job is being made so ridiculous then resign and find another job. They can't though as their skill set won't earn them the same amount compared to what they do now.

 

I have little doubt that were they to sack all the tube drivers and advertise their jobs with night positions at £35,000 a year they would fill them overnight - to this end I think their strike action is unjustified

 

I won't even start on the fact that they havent recruited externally of the LU for ten years...

Edited August 12, 2015 by LondonLuke

[achosenman]

I don't begrudge them at all - it makes no diffrence to me as I'm not even a tube user, those friends of mine that earn less than them are fuming though. However I do feel that their striking is ridiculous and not the way to do with the situation. If the job is being made so ridiculous then resign and find another job. They can't though as their skill set won't earn them the same amount compared to what they do now.

I have little doubt that were they to sack all the tube drivers and advertise their jobs with night positions at £35,000 a year they would fill them overnight - to this end I think their strike action is unjustified

I won't even start on the fact that they havent recruited externally of the LU for ten years...

I agree, they could fill the posts for less. But apart from putting more families on the dole what does that achiev? The money saved will simply go towards bigger bonuses. You can bet a £ to pinch of BS that the cheaper cost will not translate to cheap fares.

 

If bosses could fire any time they want we would all be up **** creek without a paddle. There are plenty willing to do my job for less, cheap fares all round, yey...what's a few dead bodies among the smoking wreckage due to lower standards as long as they're cheap. Every person in every job has more than one set of jealous eyes willing to undercut the present incumbents. Your job is no different, I bet there's someone waiting the other side of the Channel Tunnel right now who'd probably do your job for money you wouldn't get out of bed for.

 

Atb

Edited August 12, 2015 by achosenman

[LondonLuke]

I agree, they could fill the posts for less. But apart from putting more families on the dole what does that achiev? The money saved will simply go towards bigger bonuses. You can bet a £ to pinch of BS that the cheaper cost will not translate to cheap fares.

 

If bosses could fire any time they want we would all be up **** creek without a paddle. There are plenty willing to do my job for less, cheap fares all round, yey...what's a few dead bodies among the smoking wreckage due to lower standards as long as they're cheap. Every person in every job has more than one set of jealous eyes willing to undercut the present incumbents. Your job is no different, I bet there's someone waiting the other side of the Channel Tunnel right now who'd probably do your job for money you wouldn't get out of bed for.

 

Atb

I take your points but I don't think we will ever agree - for me the tube strikes are completely ridiculous but I do appreciate living in London (even as a non tube user) may put a skew on this

[rodp]

I agree, they could fill the posts for less. But apart from putting more families on the dole what does that achiev? The money saved will simply go towards bigger bonuses. You can bet a £ to pinch of BS that the cheaper cost will not translate to cheap fares.

 

If bosses could fire any time they want we would all be up **** creek without a paddle. There are plenty willing to do my job for less, cheap fares all round, yey...what's a few dead bodies among the smoking wreckage due to lower standards as long as they're cheap. Every person in every job has more than one set of jealous eyes willing to undercut the present incumbents. Your job is no different, I bet there's someone waiting the other side of the Channel Tunnel right now who'd probably do your job for money you wouldn't get out of bed for.

 

Atb

I thought that was already happening in your "trade" ? Recruiting graduates for the "glory of the job". Surely though, a graduate is a graduate, why should it cause accidents just because they will work for less?

 

As for the drivers, they're just employees at the end of the day, if they don't like it move on. Their job has come to an end so either change with it or move over and let someone else do it.

[Asa Bear]

good posts achosenman, a change to see an alternative well reasoned response

 

I'm amazed at how many people have the attitude of "like it or lump it". Yes there might be a line of people ready to replace the underground workers, willing to work weekends and for less money to boot but as achosenman has said there is somebody prepared to replace every single one of us in our chosen profession for less money and not as many benefits. I don't like this race to the bottom one bit.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Asa Bear

[NickS]

Rather than press on with this, I would abandon plans for night tubes and explain to those living and working in London that it is impossible whilst the unions continue to take industrial action in support of their demands. There are good reasons why the tube closes at night when you consider how much maintenance needs to be done.

[achosenman]

I thought that was already happening in your "trade" ? Recruiting graduates for the "glory of the job". Surely though, a graduate is a graduate, why should it cause accidents just because they will work for less?

 

As for the drivers, they're just employees at the end of the day, if they don't like it move on. Their job has come to an end so either change with it or move over and let someone else do it.

Cadets sitting in the right seat is fraught with pitfalls. Experiance counts for everything when it goes tits up. It goes tits up an order of magnitude more often than the pax know, or want to know. When our decisions result in everything ending well, there is no news headline, no medals, no fanfare. Just an internal looksee, and a wash up to see if anything could be done better. ATC do not make decisions for us, nor can anyone else on the ground help when you have multiple cascade failures that the manafacturer didn't even anticipate. You and your opo have to draw on your collective knowledge and experiance to sort it out.

 

I fly the most advanced passenger jet in the World. £220 million buys a lot of airplane. But it cannot fly itself, it cannot think for itself, it is not intelligent. It has no sense of preservation, it is vastly complex and designed by man. Therefore it frequently doesn't work as advertised.

 

The pax perception is all we do is push a button. Nothing could be further from the truth. Unless you fly I cannot begin to describe why we are so far from that reality. All that has changed these days with a more complex, computerised fly by wire jet, is the nature of the errors inexperienced pilots make, along with the type of failure that will kill you and all onboard. This is one reason we only promote from within. You cannot get the left seat without working your way up the seniority list, being trained and tested over the next 15 years or so.

 

There are several airlines my company will not use to position crews on. I heartily agree.

 

As for your last comment, employees have rights. Take a look at history, real history. Go back to feudal England. Workers had no rights, no life, no hope. Even recent history was no bed of roses. Victorian England anyone? The good old days eh...not. No unions, just employers giving and taking on a whim. Not forgetting the work houses, debtors prisons etc. the list is long. Organised unions have banished those days. Don't kid yourself, the victorian mill owner mindset is still alive and well in an employer near you.

 

Atb

[Flashman]

We are talking about the Tube - not planes, spaceships, "the right stuff", etc.

 

Have you looked at the average Tube driver? Chuck Yeager they ain't, so let's not get carried away with how difficult is the job - nobody says that about the DLR or Blackpool trams!

 

The RMT has done a good job of getting a great pay packet for their workers, but like all Fred Kites, they got carried away with strikes as the first option, not the last. If the job's so hard, why does the RMT insist on only promoting internally? Obviously because it's a cushy, overpaid gig.

[achosenman]

We are talking about the Tube - not planes, spaceships, "the right stuff", etc.

 

Have you looked at the average Tube driver? Chuck Yeager they ain't, so let's not get carried away with how difficult is the job - nobody says that about the DLR or Blackpool trams!

 

The RMT has done a good job of getting a great pay packet for their workers, but like all Fred Kites, they got carried away with strikes as the first option, not the last. If the job's so hard, why does the RMT insist on only promoting internally? Obviously because it's a cushy, overpaid gig.

If you look at the quote in my post, you will see that I was answering rodp. He was in fact talking about my trade, so I believe my response was correct. The connection between the two, although tenuous, was that the bloke on the street may have an opinion about the job, but by and large, they are generally clueless. Secondly experiance does count despite the ignorant claims to the contrary.

 

I have never driven a train, so I won't claim to know the first thing about it, including what the rate for the job is. But I don't suppose for a second anyone in charge (read responsible) wants dead passengers and insurances claim/counter claims to find out.

 

One thing you can be sure of, the fire them and hire cheap help brigade, will be hiding in the long grass.

 

Atb

[LondonLuke]

If you look at the quote in my post, you will see that I was answering rodp. He was in fact talking about my trade, so I believe my response was correct. The connection between the two, although tenuous, was that the bloke on the street may have an opinion about the job, but by and large, they are generally clueless. Secondly experiance does count despite the ignorant claims to the contrary.

 

I have never driven a train, so I won't claim to know the first thing about it, including what the rate for the job is. But I don't suppose for a second anyone in charge (read responsible) wants dead passengers and insurances claim/counter claims to find out.

 

One thing you can be sure of, the fire them and hire cheap help brigade, will be hiding in the long grass.

 

Atb

I'm not hiding in the long grass over this, I genuinely think they should be binned and start again at a more realistic wage. They do a few months of training and that's fine - as will any new starters and they will obviously only be set out once they are at a safe level.

 

I know two TFL employees who both independently agree tube drivers are overpaid. I think it came to them when it was they got the chance to drive a tube and found out how simple it actually was.

 

It is light years from flying a plane where I completely agree that experience is paramount.

[Flashman]

If you look at the quote in my post, you will see that I was answering rodp. He was in fact talking about my trade, so I believe my response was correct. The connection between the two, although tenuous, was that the bloke on the street may have an opinion about the job, but by and large, they are generally clueless. Secondly experiance does count despite the ignorant claims to the contrary.

 

I have never driven a train, so I won't claim to know the first thing about it, including what the rate for the job is. But I don't suppose for a second anyone in charge (read responsible) wants dead passengers and insurances claim/counter claims to find out.

 

One thing you can be sure of, the fire them and hire cheap help brigade, will be hiding in the long grass.

 

Atb

My comment isn't just related to your posts about flying. However, the drivers I see when commuting don't appear to be living on their nerves and worthy of any more pay than a Blackpool tram driver and the like. In fact, bus drivers have a more stressful job in my opinion, so why are Tube drivers so valuable?

 

Answers on a post card to, "well done the RMT, but you've gone too far."

Edited August 13, 2015 by Flashman

[achosenman]

If I was in charge I would be to start a new contract. Natural wastage removes the old inflated salary scales.

 

While we're at it you could re negociate the bosses contracts. No bonuses, the top man only gets 10x the median salary for the company. Any extras are taxed at 200% whether cash or payment in kind.

 

I'm reminded it takes two to argue. So far on this thread the management seem to be as pure as the driven snow. Somehow I'm sure that's not true.

 

Atb

[Vince Green]

There has to be a balance and at the moment the tube drivers are not balanced. I don't know if you live in London but anybody that could see the total chaos that a tube strike causes would realise why they have absolutely no support from the population of London. The roads gridlock, buses cant get through, hospital appointments get cancelled, schools close,millions of people lose a days wages or have to take a days holiday they don't want to take, people hate them.

 

They are locked in to a policy of total negativity, they would never agree to anything TfL wants to do. The old bully boy tactics of the hard left at its worst. Now they have started spreading their 24 hour strikes straddling two days which doesn't cost the company any more money but inflicts maximum damage to the commuters. They now face two days when they can't get to work and back. Thats not politics thats pure spite!

 

If you think they would agree to a new contract........................