Variation for Roe...which calibre?

[andrew f]

I use 100 grain Norma in my 243 fist size meat damage on roe and foxes don't complain when hit by them and in my 308 I use sako 123 game heads and there more than efficient to knock down Charlie and deer

[Savhmr]

Deer bullets just ain't good on dropping fox quickly

I know that sounds daft but they tend towards pencilling through on chest shots being a bit too tough

You also have increased ricochet potential in any heavier slower round. Not that you can give any extra allowance to light fast bullets

 

Non the less I remain a big fan of both its just a pity. 223 ain't legal for those roe as it might prove perfect

 

No, I appreciate that fox are better shot with a lighter ballistic tipped so-called "varmint" round, but the differences in zero at say 100 yds between ammo can't be that great...I need to look into that. I agree RE .223 as ammo is cheap, it's a great target calibre and there's loads of choice. If we were North of the border, we'd be ok, but things being as they are I'll stick with the intended calibre.

[Savhmr]

I use 100 grain Norma in my 243 fist size meat damage on roe and foxes don't complain when hit by them and in my 308 I use sako 123 game heads and there more than efficient to knock down Charlie and deer

 

Too much damage potential on Muntys with the 243 but like everything else, I guess slower loads can be made up. I'll stick with the 6.5 I think.

[kent]

 

Too much damage potential on Muntys with the 243 but like everything else, I guess slower loads can be made up. I'll stick with the 6.5 I think.

Now I have never shot mantles. But I will bet a tough bullet like a partition 100 grain will bust through just nice

What your talking about is impact speed and fragility of the

bullet this can be changed. Hitting them with a 55 grain varmint bullet at a full stacked 3700-3900 fps might get messy tho

[Savhmr]

Yes, indeed. Way too much velocity for such small game.

[kent]

 

Yes, indeed. Way too much velocity for such small game.[/quote

 

Remember a 100 grain will run nice at around 2800 and carry less kinetic energy than a 120-140 6.5 so it's relative

Very versatile calibre as long as you get the fact that you can't do great with one load in any varmint. Small deer and large deer gun. Just like shooting a

300 win mag on reds with a 180 grain then putting it on Muntys

[welshwarrior]

Kent has hit the nail on the head I run 100 grain game kings in my 243 at 2850ish for deer roe munti clean shot and not much meat damage.

I run the same bullet at just over 3,000fps on fixes it goes of and creates loads of damage.

 

Not as good a dedicated varmint bullet but shows how a bullet construction and the speed it used at are all factors.

[stubear]

I've heard great things about .270 with 130grn for just about everything. Just throwing it out there as I've not seen it mentioned in the thread so far!

 

Thats what I'm planning to apply for.

[neutron619]

I've heard great things about .270 with 130grn for just about everything. Just throwing it out there as I've not seen it mentioned in the thread so far!

 

Thats what I'm planning to apply for.

 

Probably not a fox gun, really, for the same reason kent said above. Your typical 130gr soft point bullets will just plough on through, rather than giving the rapid expansion required on small game - ends up basically cutting foxes in half if you're shooting them at any angle other than broadside. One of the few I've shot with a "deer" bullet had to be picked up by the neck and head to drag it to the hedgerow - there was nothing else solid enough to hold on to!

 

I've got to disagree with kent on one half of one point though - I'm fairly certain heavier bullets tend to ricochet less than lighter bullets shot at the same speed. However, since heavier bullets in any calibre tend to get pushed slower than the light-for-calibre bullets, they may ricochet proportionally more as lower velocity tends to lead to more ricochets, leading to the idea that both bigger and heavier increases ricochet potential.

 

To extend that thought, this is why you hear about ricochet problems with a .22LR / 50gr much more often than with a .223 / 50gr, for example. Faster, heavier rounds tend to blow themselves to bits if they hit anything solid, rather than bouncing. Really, it's just that the angle of incidence below which a ricochet can (/ is likely to) occur tends to be much lower in those cases. For a .22LR, it's around 8 degrees, but for any centre fire, it's going to be a lot less than that.

 

As for velocity, I'll repeat my comment above - anything below about 3000fps should be fine if you want to eat / sell what you shoot. If you find yourself going over 3000fps, use a heavier bullet to get the velocity down. As for muntjac, worry not - the same rule applies. I shoot almost nothing but muntjac these days. They are tough little ******* and 150gr bullets at sub-3000fps velocity are neither too little nor too much. Same with 180gr or 220gr. The latter RNSPs at 2200fps are probably the best woodland stalking round I've ever come across, in fact.

 

On the other hand, 3900fps (or similar) for Charlie is absolutely fine. Very few bullets are actually "rated" for use at those speeds, but after a certain point in the low 3000's, more velocity makes very little difference to expansion - they'll blow up violently whether it's 3400fps, 3600fps, 3800fps, etc. Exactly what you need for an animal that's might only be 4-6" wide (I'm thinking cubs here). Drive them fast!

Edited August 20, 2015 by neutron619

[Savhmr]

Well chaps, I've taken advice from a qualified deerstalker, and have signed up for my DSC level 1, more out of interest and learning than any need to as determined by a variation application although I recognise that Gloucestershire Firearms licencing prefer to see DSC on any variation for Deer.

 

The chap who runs the course also runs a home office approved range and I have taken a membership out at that range which allows me to target shoot full bore, as well as applying to be put on the waiting list for probationary membership of the DRP Club which shoots at Severnside.

 

As to calibre, having made quite a few telephone calls to various RFDs and after speaking at length to the chap taking me for the DSC course, the majority verdict of shooting target, especially if I ever want to shoot one of the few long distance ranges, is to forget 6.5 as the ballistics are not suited to longer range shooting without home loading hotter rounds, but even then, a few RFDs have hinted that future availability or choice of ammo may be an issue with this calibre. The guy running the range being a qualified and experienced deer stalker has strongly recommended I go the .308 route as it is the best "do it all" round, and as Kent and others have already mentioned, forget the comparative bullet costs as they factor for nothing with deer plus there are plentiful cheap supplies of target ammo for the 308.

 

After running in circles for a while, I have now decided to put in for 308 instead, for the purposes of deer and target shooting on my variation with confirmation and a support letter to say that I am both a member of the range and have signed up for DSC1 plus a letter from my permission's landowner confirming his support for the calibre for deer and fox control.

 

Longer term, I'm sure that going the whole hog and doing the DSC course plus picking the 308 is probably the sensible choice.

 

My only concern is that licencing may still take the view that "bigger is badder" and have a fit that a first variation into fullbore is straight to .308. We know as shooters that this of course is s non-nonsensical view in some respects but I want to avoid any antagonism of licencing officers so hope that what I am proposing will be acceptable to them. I will the hold out for a good quality used rifle and optics instead of a poorer quality new rifle and optics. I think that decision made and longer distance.more regular shooting being on the cards, buying once and buying right is the approach I'd like to take.

[Bewsher500]

 

Probably not a fox gun, really, for the same reason kent said above. Your typical 130gr soft point bullets will just plough on through, rather than giving the rapid expansion required on small game - ends up basically cutting foxes in half if you're shooting them at any angle other than broadside. One of the few I've shot with a "deer" bullet had to be picked up by the neck and head to drag it to the hedgerow - there was nothing else solid enough to hold on to!

 

 

I have a .270 BSA Majestic that my uncle owned before me

probably accounted for more foxes than all his other guns AND all my guns combined!

 

only ever fed 130gr Soft Point factory ammo

no fox EVER ran........

more than can be said for a number I shot with a .243........

[al4x]

 

Too much damage potential on Muntys with the 243 but like everything else, I guess slower loads can be made up. I'll stick with the 6.5 I think.

Damage to the front end on muntjac is fairly irrelevant, there is minimal meat on the front shoulders and ribs. Lots of people actually deliberately shoot them through the shoulders as it stops them going anywhere

[neutron619]

 

 

I have a .270 BSA Majestic that my uncle owned before me

probably accounted for more foxes than all his other guns AND all my guns combined!

 

only ever fed 130gr Soft Point factory ammo

no fox EVER ran........

more than can be said for a number I shot with a .243........

 

Sure - I'm not saying it wouldn't / won't kill foxes any more than a .458 Win Mag - which isn't a "deer gun" - wouldn't kill deer. Respectfully, I think you're taking what I'm saying a little too personally.

 

All I was saying is that it doesn't fit with what seems to be the currently prevailing view, which is that a fox gun is a rifle in 5.5-6mm (or possibly 6.5mm) calibre, loaded with light-for-calibre rapidly expanding bullets which have a ballistic profile suitable for use at medium-to-long hunting ranges (i.e. 200-400 yards).

 

The fact that Mr Smith uses a .22LR to kill foxes, that Mr Jones uses a .223 Remington, that your uncle used a .270 Winchester? Completely unrelated to the point I was making. A .270 Win with soft point ammunition would not usually be the first choice of tool if killing foxes in the widest possible range of circumstances was the criterion. It'll do the job, as will almost any rifle with suitable bullet and shot placement, but I warrant it wouldn't be most people's first choice.

Edited August 20, 2015 by neutron619

[Savhmr]

With respect, all this talk of a pure fox gun is not what the thread is about. It is more about one calibre to do it all, if there can ever be such a thing, and there's some general agreement that the heavier bullets win out, mainly because of their suitability for larger deer (with perhaps less carcass damage with slower loads) plus they're very suitable for longer target work and their ballistics are more suited to what I am after. Therefore, if choosing one calibre for everything, I am now gravitating towards the .30 calibre options (be that 308 or 30-06 or whatever).

Edited August 20, 2015 by Savhmr

[neutron619]

My only concern is that licencing may still take the view that "bigger is badder" and have a fit that a first variation into fullbore is straight to .308.

 

Obviously you're in a different licensing authority to me, but my first FAC was for .308 only. If you can justify it, they have to sign it off. Firearms ownership is a qualified right, but a right nonetheless - these numptys who keep going round saying it's a privilege might have the ear of the politicos and the press, but they're still wrong.

 

Oh - and if I didn't emphasise it enough already, velocity is the primary cause of inedible meat in muntjac. A nice, moderately quick .308 round through the engine room will quite often leave one, if not both of the front legs of a small deer intact, so unless you're wanting to casserole the meat off the rib cage as well, nothing to worry about. I usually get a slightly-larger-than-calibre hole going in and a walnut-sized hole on the way out on muntjac. My last few basically fell over, kicked half-heartedly and expired. Cutting them open didn't reveal the usual "soup" that you typically get with more rapidly expanding bullets driven faster. Very easy, good meat retention and limited mess.

[neutron619]

With respect, all this talk of a pure fox gun is not what the thread is about. It is more about one calibre to do it all, if there can ever be such a thing, and there's some general agreement that the heavier bullets win out, mainly because of their suitability for larger deer (with perhaps less carcass damage with slower loads) plus they're very suitable for longer target work and their ballistics are more suited to what I am after. Therefore, if choosing one calibre for everything, I am now gravitating towards the .30 calibre options (be that 308 or 30-06 or whatever).

 

Apologies - didn't mean to send it off-topic - just wanted to clarify to bewsher what I meant. Will refrain from now, except to say good call on the .30 cal. Only rifle you'll ever need... Want is a different matter, of course...

[Paul223]

With respect, all this talk of a pure fox gun is not what the thread is about. It is more about one calibre to do it all, if there can ever be such a thing, and there's some general agreement that the heavier bullets win out, mainly because of their suitability for larger deer (with perhaps less carcass damage with slower loads) plus they're very suitable for longer target work and their ballistics are more suited to what I am after. Therefore, if choosing one calibre for everything, I am now gravitating towards the .30 calibre options (be that 308 or 30-06 or whatever).

Also with respect this thread was for a fox and roe gun, not target, it seems your hobby has been expanding as you seek advice...

Personally I think your feo is gonna say no, knock you back to .243 for fox and roe (more than adequate) and allow a .308 Only for target work

Edited August 20, 2015 by Paul223

[Dunkield]

As with everything in life, there will be nothing that does it all very well, there will be a compromise.

You need to be honest with yourself and decide what you will end up doing most of.

 

 

 

Always reminds me a bloke I used to work with who drove a camper van 365 days of the year, just because he and his family went on holiday in to for 2 weeks in the summer.

[andrew f]

You can't go wrong with a 308 or a 270 Both good all rounders shot plenty of foxes with the 308 123 grain sako game head expand rapidly on fox don't smash roe up on broad side. If your worried about meat damage shoot them in the head or neck if your capable of it

[kent]

 

Probably not a fox gun, really, for the same reason kent said above. Your typical 130gr soft point bullets will just plough on through, rather than giving the rapid expansion required on small game - ends up basically cutting foxes in half if you're shooting them at any angle other than broadside. One of the few I've shot with a "deer" bullet had to be picked up by the neck and head to drag it to the hedgerow - there was nothing else solid enough to hold on to!

 

I've got to disagree with kent on one half of one point though - I'm fairly certain heavier bullets tend to ricochet less than lighter bullets shot at the same speed. However, since heavier bullets in any calibre tend to get pushed slower than the light-for-calibre bullets, they may ricochet proportionally more as lower velocity tends to lead to more ricochets, leading to the idea that both bigger and heavier increases ricochet potential.

 

To extend that thought, this is why you hear about ricochet problems with a .22LR / 50gr much more often than with a .223 / 50gr, for example. Faster, heavier rounds tend to blow themselves to bits if they hit anything solid, rather than bouncing. Really, it's just that the angle of incidence below which a ricochet can (/ is likely to) occur tends to be much lower in those cases. For a .22LR, it's around 8 degrees, but for any centre fire, it's going to be a lot less than that.

 

As for velocity, I'll repeat my comment above - anything below about 3000fps should be fine if you want to eat / sell what you shoot. If you find yourself going over 3000fps, use a heavier bullet to get the velocity down. As for muntjac, worry not - the same rule applies. I shoot almost nothing but muntjac these days. They are tough little ******* and 150gr bullets at sub-3000fps velocity are neither too little nor too much. Same with 180gr or 220gr. The latter RNSPs at 2200fps are probably the best woodland stalking round I've ever come across, in fact.

 

On the other hand, 3900fps (or similar) for Charlie is absolutely fine. Very few bullets are actually "rated" for use at those speeds, but after a certain point in the low 3000's, more velocity makes very little difference to expansion - they'll blow up violently whether it's 3400fps, 3600fps, 3800fps, etc. Exactly what you need for an animal that's might only be 4-6" wide (I'm thinking cubs here). Drive them fast!

There id do much there but much that I dont in anyway agree with mainly about bullets amd rf cf compatison

However your very welvome to your opinion every one has an opionion

[CharlieT]

As with everything in life, there will be nothing that does it all very well, there will be a compromise.

You need to be honest with yourself and decide what you will end up doing most of.

 

 

 

Always reminds me a bloke I used to work with who drove a camper van 365 days of the year, just because he and his family went on holiday in to for 2 weeks in the summer.

 

Having read much of the advice in this thread, I begin to wonder how I ever manage to kill anything let alone do my job with the mottley collection of unsuitable calibered rifles I have.

 

This post x100.

[Savhmr]

Also with respect this thread was for a fox and roe gun, not target, it seems your hobby has been expanding as you seek advice...

Personally I think your feo is gonna say no, knock you back to .243 for fox and roe (more than adequate) and allow a .308 Only for target work

 

 

Yes, fox and deer, mostly Roe with the odd Muntjac. All that has changed is that I would like to use one for target use too, that hardly counts as an ever-expanding hobby! You may or may not be correct on the FEO, but it is not his decision, it is for the senior licencing officer to decide and recommend to the Chief Constable (ie the FEO simply does as directed) and whilst there's nothing in law to say that I have to be DSC1 qualified or accompanied on a stalk with a letter to confirm that I handled the stalk and rifle appropriately and acceptably, it is sort of expected these days, at least with Gloucestershire.

 

I do not need a 243 and it is not (as far as I am concerned) as suitable for target as a 308. It is more likely I think that I might be offered something like .223 without the deer as a named species. That is not what I am after and does not fulfill the needs stated.

 

I now have letters from both the landowner and range owner in support of my application, so will press ahead and .308 is what will remain on that application. I hear what people are saying about there's no such thing as a do-it-all rifle, just as there's not do-it-all car, or do-it-all screwdriver or whatever, but for my intended uses, .30 calibre would appear to fit the bill perfectly.

 

Personally, I believe that I will be granted a ticket for 308 and perhaps with a qualification that deer as a named species will not be added until I submit a further variation in due course evidencing an accompanied stalk. That is a more reasonable stance than a plain "no".

[Savhmr]

 

Apologies - didn't mean to send it off-topic - just wanted to clarify to bewsher what I meant. Will refrain from now, except to say good call on the .30 cal. Only rifle you'll ever need... Want is a different matter, of course...

 

 

No apology needed . I value your contribution and that of everyone who has posted to date. At the end of the day, whether it be a motorbike forum or shooting forum, a large group of people are never going to agree on everything, so I don't expect everyone to be nodding in approval. I am after some good, down to earth feedback from those who've used these various calibres for similar use, and I think I've received that. As far as deer are concerned, it will be for the pot, so minimum damage is important to me. I may only be able to get to shoot really long range target (500m plus) on the odd occasion, mostly shooting at ranges between 100 and 200 yds. Bearing everything in mind, and with a growing network and contacts, there is always the possibility of some larger deer shooting in future and I do not want to find myself in a position where I might have to change kit (another variation!) in the future or where with regular target use, I shoot out a barrel a year or something daft. From the feedback received here and from professional stalkers and range operators alike, the 308 seems to fit the bill perfectly and avoids any future need to apply for future variations.

You can't go wrong with a 308 or a 270 Both good all rounders shot plenty of foxes with the 308 123 grain sako game head expand rapidly on fox don't smash roe up on broad side. If your worried about meat damage shoot them in the head or neck if your capable of it

 

Thanks for the feedback and confirmation Andrew.

[kent]

Of course remember itd damage yhst killd them

[welshwarrior]

I suspect you are more likely to get 308 for target and deer then AOLQ to cover fox initial issue. If fox is pushed to hard I suspect you'll be told 2 rifles.

 

I've in the past had my 243 (my foxing rifle that sometimes its used on deer) changed to deer and AOLQ instead of Fox Deer and AOLQ.