True cylinder choke question

[Underdog]

As ever and particularly in your case, pattern will fail first so there's not much to worry about regarding energy. If available to you (Eley's Clay Hush Power 7 1/2s fibre or plastic, for example) may be worth a try as a slower load often patterns tighter than an ultra fast one. Just a thought if you can't find any of the normal loads that suit.

Good point!

Thanks for the tip.

 

I much prefer fibre wads and lead shot but going back to my original question quickly, will steel generally pattern better?

Most likely but why? And you'll bust yer teeth if you cook any birds ;-)

[wymberley]

Thanks for the tip.

 

I much prefer fibre wads and lead shot but going back to my original question quickly, will steel generally pattern better?

The consensus is that you don't need to use steel. Should you wish to or even find you have to, then with no energy problem you'll be fine with standard loads and yes, it will, or should, pattern tighter but naturally, you could lose your preference for fibre wads.

[Underdog]

 

 

Oh here we go!

;-) xx

[FalconFN]

Most likely but why? And you'll bust yer teeth if you cook any birds ;-)

Because all knowledge is good knowledge. And I don't have much of it.

 

Thanks Wymberley.

Edited October 8, 2015 by FalconFN

[widgeon man]

There you are widgeon man perhaps you should learn what a gun is capable ofhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Teixm6JMw_k

Yes ......you see I do know what MY gun and cartridges are capable of, and I have shot with/against George, Richard, Peter Wilson the list goes on..... The previous post I was referring to was a chap saying he hit a bird at 70m...... I don't doubt that ....... But we are aiming to kill quarry CLEANLY not hit a clay.......

 

I've bared witness to pigeons being consistently shot at 60-70 yards with a skeet choked remy 1100 using 32gram 7's.

 

that was the lasered distance too, so accurate enough in my opinion.

 

each one folded up and dropped stone dead.

 

not sure I would fancy corvids at that range but I'm sure its do-able.

a lot of it is down to the shooter rather than the gun, as is always the case.

.

 

I shoot a perazzi........ It was built for me by them, it patterns lovely as I'm sure George's perazzi does! Now the same gun/same cartridge have the same range/same ability, it is George's ability to put the shot where it is needed that enables these long shots as he is far more consistent than a lot of other shooters! however anyone who has the time/skill and inclination can teach themselves if they persist on one long range clay using the correct gun and load! There is a limit to how far a 12ga with any choke will shoot a pattern.............. That is why God invented the magnum 10 bore : ) lol

[misser]

will worry about hitting things at 60 plus yards when hit 100% at 35 to 40yds...till then im fine with true cylinders....can always try different shells to get a better pattern at a tad longer range....

[Underdog]

Because all knowledge is good knowledge. And I don't have much of it.

 

Thanks Wymberley.

Fair enough bud :-)

[brett1985]

I shoot a perazzi........ It was built for me by them, it patterns lovely as I'm sure George's perazzi does! Now the same gun/same cartridge have the same range/same ability, it is George's ability to put the shot where it is needed that enables these long shots as he is far more consistent than a lot of other shooters! however anyone who has the time/skill and inclination can teach themselves if they persist on one long range clay using the correct gun and load! There is a limit to how far a 12ga with any choke will shoot a pattern.............. That is why God invented the magnum 10 bore : ) lol

 

exactly...

the guy I was In the hide with spends 6 days a week decoying when the time is right, and I very rarely see him miss.

no way on earth I would even attempt some of the shots that he pulls off!

 

as you quite rightly stated, some people just have the experience to be able to put the shot in the right place, others just need to be honest and admit their limitations.

[postie]

I hit a pigeon stone dead at 70 yrds once with a quarter choke and 30gram 6s

The truth is the bird I actually shot at was 35yrs and missed

I tried to deliberately shot a few at that range with no luck

Picked said bird up it had 1 pellet in its head

[Stonepark]

As long as you limit your range to 35 yards or thereabouts, you will drop them every time if you are on target even with cylinder.

 

But as advised above, get a few different cartridges, (6.5 32g, 7 30g or 7 1/2 28g) and find the one your gun likes best on the pattern plate.

 

I have shot a lot of pigeon (and crows) with clay cartridges 28g 7.5 with cyl and imp.

[Redditch]

There is now way on earth even George Digweed will consistently and more importantly cleanly kill stuff at 70 yards with Cylinder and 36 gram of number 4.

And for anyone to suggest you can or should try as Wigeon man says is plain daft.

 

A Beretta CYL choke isn't a true cyl (it's an American Cyl, more equivalent to our imp cyl, and their imp cyl is the same as our 1/4 choke)

Being a shooting coach, you should also know that chokes work more like funnels, the further the funnel the more it expands.

And imp cyl gives by far the best pattern. While other chokes hold together well and then sort of disintegrate like a trumpet, the imp cyl goes out more like a constant, not having that initial tightness and then spreading like mad, it spreads at a constant, and often almost equals a tighter choke at distance.

Add a plastic wad, and you have an English 1/4 choke at the very least, maybe even a half choke. So it's NOT as daft as it sounds.

Using 36 gram of no4 gives the same pellet count almost as using 32gram of no6, but with far better killing power, so less pellets needed to kill, and at distance a much better striking power too.

[Redditch]

Roughly the same shot count per cartridge. 30gr 7, 32gr 6, 34 gr 5, and 36gr 4

,then add a plastic wad, and you are adding roughly 1/4 choke to what you are choked over a fibre wad.

So beretta cyl =imp cyl, plus 1/4 = almost 1/2

[fenboy]

Sorry but you are talking tosh

Cylinder or Imp Cyl is going to have holes in the pattern you can drive a bus through at 70 yards even with 36 gram 4s, kills will come down to a lucky pellet or two at best .

It just so happens I have some 36 gram 4s if I get chance this week I will pattern them at 70 yards with my most open choke and post up the result .

If I am wrong I will eat a slice of humble pie , if I am right you can say sorry for talking tosh

[Redditch]

Do the same with cyl, imp cyl, 1/4, 1/2 , 3/4, and full, and then try the same using fibre and plastic wads. You will find imp cyl has by far the best pattern for costs tench at almost all ranges, for the simple reason it doesn't deform the shot as much.

Add a plastic wad (which will protect the shot from more deformation, and also improve its resistance to gas disruption, and that generally gives you at least 1/4 choke over what you are using. Simple facts lad, I've been shooting 55 years now m and I shoot almost every day LOL.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Redditch

[Redditch]

The only way to get good range with heavier chokes is to have specially made after market chokes, and/or choose the cartridge that works best with your chokes (or have someone like perazzi tailor them for you, ala George ). Fact is, a plastic wad gives better patterns than a fibre wad, But! It isn't environmentally friendly.

But fact is, imp cyl will always give the best pattern in shotguns, because it gives less compression to the outer pellets, so not deforming them.

Compress pellets, and they deform, and then the pattern expands. The more compression, the more deformation, the more expansion.

An imp cyl will give almost linear expansion. A harder choke goes like a vase, holds tighter to start, then expands more,

Edited October 9, 2015 by Redditch

[fenboy]

Lets stick to what you say is so good , I will pattern plastic 36gram 4s at 70 yards with a IMP CYL

[fenboy]

The only way to get good range with heavier chokes is to have specially mad after market chokes, and or choose the cartridge that works best with your chokes. Fact is, a plastic wad gives better patterns than a fibre wad, But! It isn't environmentally friendly.

But fact is, imp cyl will always give the best pattern in shotguns, because it gives less compression to the outer pellets, so not deforming them.

Compress pellets, andthey deform, and then the patter expands. The more compression, the more deformation, the more expansion.

An imp cyl will give almost linear expansion. A harder choke goes like a vase, holds tighter to start, then expands more,

But not at 70 yards , if that was the case why do guns come with a selection of chokes ?

Accepted standard is the amount of pellets in a 30 " circle at the given range , are you trying to tell me IMP CYL will put more in that area than full ?

[Redditch]

Lets stick to what you say is so good , I will pattern plastic 36gram 4s at 70 yards with a IMP CYL

Then try different makes until you find one that suits your gun. Mine does it emulate no problem, so I'm very happy.

[Redditch]

But not at 70 yards , if that was the case why do guns come with a selection of chokes ?

Accepted standard is the amount of pellets in a 30 " circle at the given range , are you trying to tell me IMP CYL will put more in that area than full ?

because they are shooting at standard sporting ranges. And trying to get more pellets into that circle at the given range of what they are shooting. Yes, at 55 yards a full choke will generally (not always, put more pellets into the circle than a lesser cyl. but! It will generally be concentrated into the centre, and not evenly distributed.

And that concentration tends to last about 5 metres per 1/4 choke up, per cartridge.

then, add heavier pellets, and a better pattern, and what do you get ? Less pellets needed for a kill strike, but a much more even pattern. You concentrate the pellets at range to make up for the loss in killing power of an individual pellet.

Why not instead use the same amount of pellets with a greater killing force (larger), and a better pattern, to thus increase killing chances ??

Edited October 9, 2015 by Redditch

[fenboy]

Then try different makes until you find one that suits your gun. Mine does it emulate no problem, so I'm very happy.

So are you now trying to suggest it is only your cylinder choke that will do these 70 yards shots and any experiment with another is meaningless

I cannot belive George Digweed handicaps himself by shooting extra full in both barrels .

[Redditch]

So are you now trying to suggest it is only your cylinder choke that will do these 70 yards shots and any experiment with another is meaningless

I cannot belive George Digweed handicaps himself by shooting extra full in both barrels .

no! I'm saying that different cartridge choke combinations can have adverse or positive effects.

Work it out yourself.

If you have a 40" circle, and 90% of your shot is in the 10" centre, you have a 10% chance of hitting something outside that 10" and then it depends on the seamount of pellets you hit it with (taking a full choke as an example)

Now, take an imp cyl, the patterns spread evenly throughout, BUT, you need far less pellets to hit the target (we are NOT talking clays here, but live birds,one pellet generally won't kill it)

You can hit it with a small percentage of those pellets of you aren't exactly (aka George) on target. So those 10% you have over, out of say 300 pellets is 30 pellets, spread over the remainder.

From those on no6 shot, you will need an average of at least 6 pellets to kill the bird.

Now, take no4 shot, same amount of pellets, BUT, they are spread evenly through the 40" circle, and you only need 3 to hit tho kill that same bird.

So, it makes sense to have a better more consistent pattern (rather than everything in the middle) and a higher killing power per pellet.

I think it was Gough Thomas (if that's how you spell Gough ?) in shooting times that first brought this theory forward about 1970 !!)

It's stood me in good stead, and I've been shooting since 1960

He advised using open chokes and smaller shot to improve pellet strike. I advise using a larger size and the same amount of pellets, again with open choke, to improve range with the same effect

Edited October 9, 2015 by Redditch

[Redditch]

Like I said, check the pattern, pattern is better (more even) the opener the choke, but a larger shot size means less pellets to kill. Half the pellets needed with 4 over 6 size

Edited October 9, 2015 by Redditch

[B25Modelman]

and of course we must consider the weather conditions

[JohnfromUK]

using cylinder if it is bored well gives good even patterns............BUT........it is down to your choice of cartridges as to how well the cylinder patterns...

 

i might risk saying....cylinder borings are "cartridge sensitive"...........but if you choose the right one, they are deadly..

 

I have also been told by knowledgeable people that very open borings are much more cartridge sensitive and would agree with the above

[Scully]

I'm looking at a cheap Laurona O/U 12g as a pigeon gun but it is 'true' cylinder choked on both barrels (I believe that is the same as open). As it stands that isn't going to be great for pigeons but I had a thought that if I used steel then it would that give me a tighter pattern than lead. Can anyone tell me what sort of effective range I could expect to get with steel?

 

Have a look at this :http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/321982-skeet-gun-fun-with-mk600-3-10-2015/

It is an example of what can be done with skeet chokes, 28grm cartridges and small shot. I wouldn't worry too much.