steve_b_wales Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 I have an 'open' certificate for all my calibre's. My mate has a 'closed' one. Would he be allowed to use his rifle on my permission with me being present? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hambone Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 I would have thought so but a quick call to your FLO would confirm. In effect you would be acting as his 'mentor' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 I thought the land still had to be cleared for the calibre he is intending to use? (for him, not you obviously) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_b_wales Posted October 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 I thought the land still had to be cleared for the calibre he is intending to use? (for him, not you obviously) Good point. As I have an 'open' certificate, the land hasn't been assessed. I use a .243 for foxing, my mate uses a .22-250. I'll check with my FLO later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesj Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 The land still has to be cleared for whatever caliber he is using, if its his rifle! But he could use yours with if you are with him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 The land still has to be cleared for whatever caliber he is using, if its his rifle! But he could use yours with if you are with him If the estate rifle clause is applicable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesj Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 If the estate rifle clause is applicable As I (and my feo) see the law it would other wise how could anybody be mentored before the are granted a FAC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 As I (and my feo) see the law it would other wise how could anybody be mentored before the are granted a FAC Tell me about it! The idea of a mentor is to accompany you, with your rifle, on your land, after grant, not before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_b_wales Posted October 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Tell me about it! The idea of a mentor is to accompany you, with your rifle, on your land, after grant, not before. I have mentored many people who have used their own rifle on their land. This has always been accepted by my FEO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 I have mentored many people who have used their own rifle on their land. This has always been accepted by my FEO. Yes, thats what I'm saying, mentoring after grant, not before, so's you're not at risk of breaching estate rifle clauses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_b_wales Posted October 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Yes, thats what I'm saying, mentoring after grant, not before, so's you're not at risk of breaching estate rifle clauses. I read your statement wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesj Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 I know of at least one person who was asked to get someone to mentor them before a FAC was granted and a couple before a variation. but any way I was told by my feo that it was ok to use a rifle if the person with it on their FAC was with then with you and It would help my sons aplication if i took him out with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 As far as the OP is concerned, only if the land has been cleared. Regarding the Estate Rifle exemption. To qualify, as the law currently stands, the person lending the rifle must be the occupier. Merely having permission from the occupier to shoot his land does not, in itself, make one an occupier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 As far as the OP is concerned, only if the land has been cleared. Regarding the Estate Rifle exemption. To qualify, as the law currently stands, the person lending the rifle must be the occupier. Merely having permission from the occupier to shoot his land does not, in itself, make one an occupier. ^^^^^ Yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 As far as the OP is concerned, only if the land has been cleared. Regarding the Estate Rifle exemption. To qualify, as the law currently stands, the person lending the rifle must be the occupier. Merely having permission from the occupier to shoot his land does not, in itself, make one an occupier. This has come up multiple times on forums including this one, the trouble is that there is no definition of 'occupier' and whilst some have interpreted that as the person who owns/lives on the land, others have interpreted as someone with permission to shoot over the land could also be classed as an occupier. It's one of the hazy areas in firearms legislation that would be great to tidy up if the review of the laws happens and under the control of someone who understands the realities of shooting - this may be a pipe dream though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) This has come up multiple times on forums including this one, the trouble is that there is no definition of 'occupier' and whilst some have interpreted that as the person who owns/lives on the land, others have interpreted as someone with permission to shoot over the land could also be classed as an occupier. It's one of the hazy areas in firearms legislation that would be great to tidy up if the review of the laws happens and under the control of someone who understands the realities of shooting - this may be a pipe dream though. I don't think it's too hard to interprete, permission is transient, taken away at any time, I think occupier is either the owner or someone with a contract that can't be withdrawn immediately, I don't know why the law is there, I wouldn't want to be the test case, I got questioned by the police a few years back on this very matter when a fellow shooter explained that he'd shot my rifles on our land during his interview for FAC.. BASC cleared that up with Leicestershire police for me. So, it's not cut and dry, I got a grilling. Edited October 16, 2015 by kyska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 This has come up multiple times on forums including this one, the trouble is that there is no definition of 'occupier' and whilst some have interpreted that as the person who owns/lives on the land, others have interpreted as someone with permission to shoot over the land could also be classed as an occupier. It's one of the hazy areas in firearms legislation that would be great to tidy up if the review of the laws happens and under the control of someone who understands the realities of shooting - this may be a pipe dream though. It may be hazy to you but an occupier is someone with legal control over the land and as such all the responsibilities, in law that are incumbent with that responsibility. Such responsibilities are broad and cover everything from occupiers liability through to the ability to transfeer title. Most certainly I do not confer occupation to someone to whom I have given permission shoot on my land. The very least a person needs to become an occupier is a legally drawn up lease for the shooting/sporting rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Good point. As I have an 'open' certificate, the land hasn't been assessed. I use a .243 for foxing, my mate uses a .22-250. I'll check with my FLO later. Please let me know what the answer you receive is. I`m just about to put in for my FAC and I`d like to know if me having land that I can only go on whilst accompanied (ie a friend`s permission) will be sufficient reason to hold expanding ammunition and make sure I can get a moderator for the guns I choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Please let me know what the answer you receive is. I`m just about to put in for my FAC and I`d like to know if me having land that I can only go on whilst accompanied (ie a friend`s permission) will be sufficient reason to hold expanding ammunition and make sure I can get a moderator for the guns I choose. If you have somewhere to shoot, with land owners permission you're good to go, your friend can't do this by proxy, unless the landowner is happy with a 'pp'. These aren't difficult questions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Please let me know what the answer you receive is. I`m just about to put in for my FAC and I`d like to know if mehaving land that I can only go on whilst accompanied (ie a friend`s permission) will be sufficient reason to hold expanding ammunition and make sure I can get a moderator for the guns I choose. To demonstrate your good reason to acquire a firearm you are required to put forward one piece of land or invitations to shoot. Such invitations would need to come from the legal occupier of the land and be in writing. I doubt very much that a verbal invitation from a mate, to accompany him on his permission, will suffice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hambone Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 If you have somewhere to shoot, with land owners permission you're good to go, your friend can't do this by proxy, unless the landowner is happy with a 'pp'. These aren't difficult questions! Absolutely spot on. Only become a problem if the land owner decides that permission wasn't given too the second party Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 If you have somewhere to shoot, with land owners permission you're good to go, your friend can't do this by proxy, unless the landowner is happy with a 'pp'. These aren't difficult questions! Atm the landowner is fine with me going on accompanied but not willing to grant me permission to go on alone. I`m hoping the situation will change in the near future but right now it is as stated. And to paraphrase "there are no difficult questions, only ones to which you don`t know the answers to" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 To demonstrate your good reason to acquire a firearm you are required to put forward one piece of land or invitations to shoot. Such invitations would need to come from the legal occupier of the land and be in writing. I doubt very much that a verbal invitation from a mate, to accompany him on his permission, will suffice. I`m covered for getting my FAC. I have membership at an approved range, for .22rf. It`s just for adding expanding ammo and possibly a moderator. As regards the mod I`ve had one person tell me I won`t get it for range use and another tell me I shouldn`t have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Then all you need is a letter from the landowner giving you permission to shoot. The fact that he requires you to be accompanied by your mate does not need to appear in the letter and complicate the application. Job sorted.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Then all you need is a letter from the landowner giving you permission to shoot. The fact that he requires you to be accompanied by your mate does not need to appear in the letter and complicate the application. Job sorted.............. A brilliant solution except for one thing. He won`t give me a letter atm. Which is why I asked the question in the first place. I do have a couple of other irons in the fire atm and it may be that I can get permission letters from them. But, in case I can`t I was curious about the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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