njc110381 Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Hey guys. I'm having some serious issues after having my house rendered and am looking for some advice. I need to tackle the builder over it but want to know what I'm talking about before I do. The render mix was Frithend sand and white cement, with the intention of not painting it. The problem I have is that big sheets of it have not adhered to the block (1970's Bradstone Tooled). The builder has patched it once and it's looking pretty awful, but now more is coming off so it's not even structurally sound! To be blunt the place looks terrible and I'm not sure what to do. I think it's reasonable to expect the whole face to be redone, although I know he's not going to take that request lightly! How should this old block work have been prepped to get a good bond? It's a very shiny block, almost glazed looking. I need to pull him up on it as he did very little to prepare the surface (I was home when the work was carried out). I think he's skimped a bit on the prep work and now it's coming back to bite him. It's a shame because he's done a lot of good work here. Nearly £100k all in. We've always paid his invoice on the day and are now left with the retainer, which he is asking for with the reassurance that he will come back and sort any issues. I'm bracing myself for a fight when he hears that he's not getting it yet, which I think is more than fair considering the circumstances. We're on very friendly terms with him after six months and I don't want to suggest that I don't value his word, but at the end of the day a retainer is a retainer. I wise old chap once told me never to lend more than I could afford to lose - it's something that made sense at the time and I've always stuck by with friends. As such, I'm not paying out the funds until the work is done to an acceptable standard. I'm not out of order to say that am I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Not out of order at all. Retension is kept for scenarios such as this. Without pics I'd say from your description it's either - insufficient or non existent use of a bonding agent ( PVA )or no scratch coat. Any chance of a picture ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 If your blockwork has a glazed look then its pretty obvious some thought should have went into prepping prior to render. If it was that bad wire meshing should have been considered as the like of glue can only help so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Sounds like the surface needed scabbling properly to give a proper key. Render never looks right once it's been patched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Not out of order at all. Retension is kept for scenarios such as this. Without pics I'd say from your description it's either - insufficient or non existent use of a bonding agent ( PVA )or no scratch coat. Any chance of a picture ? We tend to paint all lintels now amd even then they can be dodgy for getting a good hold.If all the BW has a shiny appearance again i think PVA would still not have been sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I agree. Scabbling would have provided a key for the scratch coat. as it was sand and cement one coat wouldn't be enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Just remember that although you have a good Working Relationship with him, he is not your Friend. Hold onto the retainer, I will guarantee that once you have paid him up you will not get anything else out of him. You need to be very firm with him. Tell him exactly what you expect from him, ie the full wall doing again. If he says he will patch it again, tell him you will hold onto the retainer for the period it took the last lot to fall off before paying the balance. Fortunately, you hold the cards on this one. Make sure you use them to your full satisfaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddoakley Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Not my trade but I have done plenty and now employ tradesmen to do it. Firstly any contractor worth his salt will not expect to be paid if the job isn't finished to a satisfactory standard. He may ask you to pay but probably doesn't actually expect it. From your description it sounds like there were a few options for prep, none of which have been done. 1- "scabble" the whole area. Take the shiney surface off mechanically. 2- mesh the entire area. Using expamet (expanded metal lath) or similar screwed to the block 3- suitable bonding coat. This is exactly what we are in the process of doing on a job at the moment (if it ever stops raining) The existing render is sound and flat but has some hairline cracks. It's completely solid and will not be coming off so another coat is the only option. Cement and SBR mixed to a slurry and applied using a flicker machine (terolian gun) to provide a key and the render as normal. Not always the best option but sounds as though it might have been right for yours. Hope this helps. Edd Ps if you do have any issue and want someone to give you a written quote/spec then feel free to drop my a line. Edd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Why does anybody recommend PVA....read its uses.......PVA is no use externally its PVA water breaks it down .....SBR or rend aid for external works scud coat then scratch then finish...... Edited December 2, 2015 by millrace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Look if its like you say and I'd done 100k for you I'd be telling you its coming of,its the only answer the first frost will blow it off,, it needs prep properly and time between coats, were doing quite a bit now with good old limestone sand and white cement for the reason of not painting even doing white roughcast good for many years before paint needed, he may not be happy but if he has any pride he will know it all needs done I always tell ppl a patch is a patch no matter how good its done..... Edited December 2, 2015 by millrace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 What ever happened to spatter dash? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl1 Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Why does anybody recommend PVA....read its uses.......PVA is no use externally its PVA water breaks it down .....SBR or rend aid for external works scud coat then scratch then finish...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Bradstone made at that time had a water repellent in the mix, so there would not be much suction. Add to that, a possible algae coating, however thin, and there's a few things to think about before starting the render operation, scabbling for sure, I would think, followed by a scatch coat, should have been specified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl1 Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Why does anybody recommend PVA....read its uses.......PVA is no use externally its PVA water breaks it down .....SBR or rend aid for external works scud coat then scratch then finish...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Thanks for your replies chaps. It's put my mind at ease regarding the way I planned to tackle the problem (not pay him). The builder did indeed brush some PVA on the surface before he rendered it, but that was it. No mechanical removal of the shiny surface (which I would have expected, but I'm not the expert). It sounds like he should have done that. I don't think that expecting it to look perfect is too much to ask. Having a number of you saying the same thing is reassuring. Especially the comment from millrace - I'm a bit miffed that he's even billed me for it because if I did a job like that I sure as hell wouldn't invoice for the work until I'd sorted it. He's quite happy to take his money and go if I allow it which I find a little insulting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Rudolph works hard at this time of year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 checked the van thought i may have had a tub of pva there but fairly sure it says not for external use,will check in morning there will be one somewhere can send you a pic of revelent bit if its any use ,,,, problem is this every plasterer thinks pva is the be all and end of all bonding situations which it is not,,the amount of times i have pulled older more experianced guys than me on this is unreal now im not a plasterer by trade (joiner) now building contractor so i know exactly what he has done and the limitations of what can be achieved hence my comments about putting right to many older guys are stuck on old products that dont actually do what they think and think anything new costs to much but against the cost of putting something right cpl quid a gallon for the correct product is small change now.....feel free to drop me a line if you need any advice on how to proceed and what he says next.... i can prob script it for you......lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essex Keeper Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) We had a probleam on a job where the render was blowing it was bad Feb!! All so SBR is king everbuild yellow can better than pva on outside walls it will make the wall have a gloss look but the render will stick like **** How many coats 1 2 3 ? Edited December 3, 2015 by m2tyj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 No mechanical removal of the shiny surface (which I would have expected, but I'm not the expert). It sounds like he should have done that. That shininess is because the Bradstone has the water repellent in it. Unless the mortar was right, it wouldn't stick to the blocks when being laid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Acetic acid which is formed when when cement and PVA comes into contact either by mixing or priming will continualy free the water bound in the cement which will weaken the bond and./or the integrity of the material. The affect is accelerated if the material is subjected to moisture which is more or less always the case. PVA isnt water resistant it becomes live when when exposed to moisture and this combined with the exposure to Alkali accelerates the forming of Acetic acid. PVA which is marketed as water resistant or exterior has additives to make them so but they are not Alkali resistant. Will that answer a question NJC? Bostik say- Bostik PVA (formerly known as Cementone Rendabond PVA) is ready to use and is suitable for a wide range of building jobs. It is a highly effective primer, admixture, bonding agent, dustproofer and may also be used as an adhesive. It is economical, and suitable for interior use and dry service conditions. For damp or external situations Sealocrete Bostik SBR is recommended Unibond super PVA data sheet says on very last page. Prouduct is For internal application's only Can you remember which pva he uses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 SBR everbuild. That's the one I was trying to tell you NJC. I just couldnt remember the name Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farcombehall Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I have been a builder for 45 years both my brother and father were plasters so what he's got to do is hack it all off and scabble the block work thoroughly, then wash it off completely and then render it with two coats of what ever products he's using. If he doesn't want to scabble it which is very time consuming then he must fix firmly sheets of stainless or galvanised mesh (exmatt) or similar then two coats. patching wont work as water will seep in joint and blow the rest off. Also the weather must be right its not practical to do that sort of work at this time of year as the temperature is two low. PVA or similar is not practical for outside use. there may be a resin based product which would do it as new products are coming on the market all the time. Hope this helps. P.S. This is his problem he knows hes done wrong and if hes worth anything he will put it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted December 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I think there may still be an old PVA bottle chucked out on the drive that hasn't been tidied up yet. I'll check in the morning. If he wants his money he will put it right, otherwise he's not getting it. Simples... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted December 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 Well I finally got around to talking to the builder and I have to say, he's been very good. The conversation started off with more patching, but he quite quickly realised that I wasn't too impressed with that idea and suggested knocking it all off and starting again. He then called the wife a few days later to apologise for the conversation he had with me, saying that instead of taking the fixing costs out of his retainer, he actually didn't want any more money at all because he felt bad about the stresses of it for us. I wasn't expecting that at all! We're going to leave it until the spring and decide how to proceed then. If it falls off in the frosts then that saves time on the chisel! As a final note he was adamant that the sealer/adhesive used was suitable for outside use and that wasn't the issue. Me being a scruffy ****** has paid off in this case because I've found the bottle, complete with white cement and rendering sand stuck to it, outside on the driveway. It is indeed not fit for outdoor use. It says so extremely discreetly about half way down the instructions for use, some way below where the instructions for render are! I never knew indoor render existed but I suppose it must do! I'm going to call him again and give him a heads up on this because he genuinely believed it was ok, which is a real shame for his profit margin and I want to make sure he doesn't make the same mistake again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddoakley Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 The right result. Can't fault his response really, either fix it or leave you enough money to have it fixed at your convenience. Exactly what I would have done. Glad it worked out. Edd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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