Clay Counters - Claymate - Do we realy need them?

[pin]

That would be relatively easily implemented

 

The claymate thing isn't meant to be hack-proof, I won't say how but its easily got around. The master box still has an audit counter internal to it, these are hidden from the shooter and can't easily be reset.

 

If grounds started to see clays going missing when counters don't tally with the audits they would be on to you.

 

Anyway, hate them or not you have the ultimate decision not to shoot at grounds who use them if you don't like them

[Vegeta]

That would be relatively easily implemented

 

Well it would be easy to pick up on the bang, what might be hard is to make sure that the bang off another shotgun at the next stand over stand doesn't register

 

oh and I call dibs on teh copyright

[pin]

For sporting with some separation between the stands it would be easy to differentiate between a bang in the stand compared to one 20ft away - sound waves follow the "inverse square" law so double the distance from the source = 1/4 of the intensity. A relatively cheap SPL ic would easily differentiate I would think.

[MC]

What is wrong with paying for what you use? Do you go and do your weekly shopping and take a couple of biscuits from a packet so you can try them first?

 

If you are on a fairly busy shoot and normally have to wait then stand behind the people who are shooting and see where the clays are flying.

 

I can see the frustrating side like Catamong pointed out but the majority of places I have shot ask how many no birds you have had and deduct them.

[Gully]

The only place I shoot with Claymates is broomhills. Recently I went to a stand on my own, I think they call it the woodcock stand. Whenever you launched one clay, all five traps fired, but not simultaneously, on report but only added one clay to the counter. I had a great time, reloading as fast as I could and practising gun down shooting

 

I mentioned it to the guys in the shop though

 

I also shot there last week, put 89 on the claymate. Went to pay, they asked if I had any no birds. Yes, but only one. He rounded it down to 85. They're not all thieves Cat.

[Catamong]

No Gully, you're dead right, the last time I shot at Broomhills (a couple of years ago), one of the trap monkeys said "make sure you tell them about the 10 broken birds", and, in fairness, I wasn't charged for them.

 

That contrasts markedly with the attitude at Lakenheath, which was "the counter can't be wrong, you pay up..!!".

 

Well, I can assure you it was wrong, and despite my protests, I had to pay for targets that were still in the trap.

 

Quite surprising, considering it's supposed to be a CPSA "Premier Ground"..??

 

Cat.

[pin]

I'm with you cat on this particular one (birds definitely not seen or shot at). Given how claymate works its entirely possible that it can go wrong and increment the counter.

 

To have it right they do make a point of telling you, that you pay for what the counter says.

 

However on the few occasions I have been there I have found it hard to find someone to report "no birds". They do say you can phone through, but given the price of a clay and the effort to actually call them about each one, its hardly worth it.

 

In their defence, to make this more rounded, they do seem to keep things in good order and I can't remember more than 1 or 2 no birds in 500+ clays I have shot there.

 

I don't see why they simply won't decide on a percentage like most places, or take each case on its merit. If I were running a ground and someone wanted to tell me they had 2 "no birds" from a large count, I'd use my common sense and assume they were not on the rob

 

This whole "pre payment" thing (like they have at the A1 now) is worse in my opinion. You have to decide what you want to shoot and pay first, which is fine if you know you want to shoot a set amount, with a group sometimes its hard to judge - ok you can walk back and pay more, but its a pain.

 

I understand the controls are there to protect the ground, but given the level of "fraud" they say there was, how come the prices have not come down?

[naddan28]

Hey, ten points to pin!!! How come prices are not going down?? Hmmm simple answer is the clay grounds are keeping the extra margin for themselves. Seem's that most claygrounds etc seem to be unwilling to pass on any economies of scale or technlogical related savings to consumers. Shame but when they have a monopoly on large areas (in some cases 50 odd mile radius) you can see the BUSINESS logic. Just ashame morality or just decentcy doesn't come into it. As pin stated they were quick to implement the system due to "fraud". Althou eventually after the extra profits have paid for the claymates they may lower prices.

[Gully]

Yes, I don't like A1 for that reason.

 

If I shoot there alone. I get my daughter to trap for me. You turn up, buy 100 so get 110. No option of seeing a few, have to try to hit them whatever if you're going to shoot 100. I've never managed to shoot a full 100, always 80 or 90 something by the time you've had no birds and seen some.

[pin]

I see the clay grounds point of view, that the "seeing" of birds will mount up, and does mount up to some considerable sum.

 

However, they are CLAY GROUNDS. They knew what they were getting themselves into, can't help feeling this is "trap" mentality being applied verbatim to sporting - which by its very nature is less disciplined and more "random" than any trap discipline.

 

Oh no, silly me, most trap disciplines ALLOW, IN THE RULES, for a shooter to see a target. Oh, hang on, so does sporting! Silly me.

 

Wonder why we have to pay, but trap disciplines don't? By this I mean you pay for a "round" at most grounds if you want to play skeet games, but you pay on the counter if you like to play sporting.

[Catamong]

Well, you won't find any of the dreaded Claymate Bandits at the West London Sporting Targets, and OK, if you want to shoot the odd extra bird to find out where you've missed, you don't get screwed for it, the attitude is very relaxed, (unlike Lakenheath..!!), they obviously factor those extra birds into the cost of your round.

 

So how come it's cheaper to shoot skeet at WLST than Lakenheath, answers on a postcard please..??

 

Cat.

[pin]

To me in my professional life, customer perception and service are paramount.

 

In order to develop a lasting, profitable relationship the customer has to feel special, looked after and feel he is getting something the others are not (even if its not true). Same in any industry.

 

What better way to do that than not be a complete bunch of total claymate nazi's when it comes to paying

 

Just cut the 8 guys who just shot hundreds of pounds worth of targets and spent a fortune on drinks and food a bit of slack.

 

NO?

[Catamong]

Yes, a valid point, having run a Sunday morning clay shoot myself for about 10 years, the cost of purchasing the clays was insignificant, my main concern was to ensure that my regular members paid their £20 annual subs fee and kept on coming back week after week to enjoy their shooting.

 

OK, if they cracked off at 40 or 50 extra clays over and above what they'd paid for, I couldn't give a monkey's, because I was buying them by the full pallet at £30 per thousand and customer satisfaction was important to me, that's why we always had a very healthy turnout..!!

 

Cat.

[pin]

I think the problem with large grounds (lakenheath and many others) is there is always " a large turnout ". They think they can do whatever and people will still come, and by virtue of numbers there on "busy" days they think that is true.

 

The "lost" revenue to a place like that is shooters like us, slightly disgruntled who still like the place but would shoot somewhere else at the drop of the hat.

 

That policy must cost them thousands more targets, shot or not (but not paid for), than they realise

[naddan28]

I with clay grounds, from a business perspective they are generally lazy and ran be incompetent management that wouldn't last 5 mins in a competitive industry and rest on the local monopoly they have. All businesses should seek to develop a competitive advantage through either cost leadership, differentation or focus (Porter's Generic Strategies). Considering the scope for cost leadership is incredibly small, clay prices are relatively fixed as is equipment etc then differentation is the way forward.

 

In order to differentate one ground from another, I would argue the key area for differentation is customer service. Making customers feel "special" by respect, the odd freebie and a helpful/curtious mindset. As CM pointed out, he ran a shoot which he focused on customer enjoyment and as such had a healthy turnout, if he was to be anal about clays and pay what the counter says no doubt his shoot would never have had its attendance levels that it did.

 

As a result it seems most claygrounds know that x number of people will turn up regardless due to location and convience. If they only loose 5% of shooters and are a big club, not a problem. Although, should all clubs go to claymates and similiar systems or as the sport increases in popularity then these former big clubs that are anally retentive may suffer somewhat and loose lots of market share. As they will not have any competitive advantage and a local monopoly will have dissapeared due to increased competition.

 

(and my gf says I should be revising and PW wont help, what does she know lots of strategic management above )

 

Dan

[the last engineer]

having read this post with interest, it seems to me the majority would do without the "claymate" counterstyle format.

 

if i might play D.A. for a moment.

Q/ is the general introduction of said machines, due to manning cost's of the grounds ?

e.g. less payed manpower allowing for a more flexable shoot rotation through membership.

therefore reduction in membership cost spread through out the shooting fraternity.

 

Q/ do you think it's an introduction to increase cost regardless of membership and shoot numbers

i personaly feel the same as Pin in customer relationships, the paying consumer calls the shots <- mlj

 

i may be lucky enough to be a prefered customer here at many grounds, the volume of shells i put out should make it so, often im asked if there'sanything else the "club" in question can do for me, machines, layout, features, specials, the majority of clubs here ( in my honest opinion) treat us shooters very well, they kinda bend over backwards to help, its a co-operative union of shooters and grounds that make this work, we'd do well to remember with out one the other is nothing.

 

price breaks are passed on to frequent shooters, early bird memebership raffle for a 1,000 targets and so on,

the use of "long range target release" system allows more flexability to shooters, no need of trap personnel, no need of a puller (programable delay option) flexable time's for groups or individuals, also the fact that the cost of less ayable personnel means overhead cost's are reduced and passed on.

 

is this not the case in the UK now??

 

Martin

[Madcowz]

Until this week, I had not even seen this Claymate whatsit.

 

But, we went down to West kent Shooting School and got to use it for the first time, once we found the ground. No signs at all anywhere, They said this was to stop the 'Antis' but I think we should stop hiding and be proud of what we do. Anyway, that is for another day.

 

I for one was impressed. It allowed us to go round the stands we wanted, shoot what we wanted and pay for what we shot at (note I didn't say hit).

 

They gave a 5% discount for no birds, although we didn't have any. It would even allow me to go round on my own and shoot.

 

The only problem I can see is that it is a little too easy to keep on saying, 'just one more pair'.

 

/Mad