rodp Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 If it means murderers, rapists, terrorists, unwanted immigrants, benefit claiming dole seeking good for nothing scrounging scum that come on a boat also lose any rights then I'll willingly give it up. And I won't be on my own ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 If it means murderers, rapists, terrorists, unwanted immigrants, benefit claiming dole seeking good for nothing scrounging scum that come on a boat also lose any rights then I'll willingly give it up. And I won't be on my own ! You see rodp, here's the thing I have been thinking about. EU withdrawal won't sort all of your concerns at all because the echr will still be here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodp Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 But only if our courts want to implement it, leaving the eu is a huge step to getting our own laws back. Stay in and we've not a cat in hells chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 We have to make a start by leaving! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 (edited) But only if our courts want to implement it, leaving the eu is a huge step to getting our own laws back. Stay in and we've not a cat in hells chance.Why do think the courts will behave differently? I really can't see how EU withdrawal will affect any of issues you highlighted other than social security entitlements for workers coming from the EU? Our courts will continue to rule based on the echr, hra and all the UN treaties. Yes, will we be able to control migration from within the EU and perhaps parliament will repeal some directives? But everything else seems financial! Edited February 27, 2016 by Dr D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodp Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 Well, only time will tell on that one, we'll have to wait and see if any laws are changed when the next rumpus hits the fan about not being able to get rid of a terrorist won't we. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 (edited) No. We will still be in the echr. Its a completely different debate. I really think the whole EU things boils down to money. Everything else is a smokescreen. Unless I am missing something. Will we be better off financially? I really am torn on this one. Edited February 27, 2016 by Dr D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 Rousseau v J S Mill Or Adolf Hitler v The Jewish Race. I'm sure the vast majority of German Jews had a 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' mindest when filling in their identification census papers in 1935/6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 Why do think the courts will behave differently? I really can't see how EU withdrawal will affect any of issues you highlighted other than social security entitlements for workers coming from the EU? Our courts will continue to rule based on the echr, hra and all the UN treaties. Yes, will we be able to control migration from within the EU and perhaps parliament will repeal some directives? But everything else seems financial! This is entirely true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 If it means murderers, rapists, terrorists, unwanted immigrants, benefit claiming dole seeking good for nothing scrounging scum that come on a boat also lose any rights then I'll willingly give it up. And I won't be on my own ! We have plenty of our own as well so not sure what will happen if we exit. No. We will still be in the echr. Its a completely different debate. I really think the whole EU things boils down to money. Everything else is a smokescreen. Unless I am missing something. Will we be better off financially? I really am torn on this one. I also have this problem, no one can tell me and i can't fine the info for financials for in vs out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 We have plenty of our own as well so not sure what will happen if we exit. I also have this problem, no one can tell me and i can't fine the info for financials for in vs out. That's the thing though, crime, actual crime is down over recent years, it is the perception of crime that is the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 I have spent the last few days in Barcelona living the dream at Mobile world Congress with many of my European colleagues. Out for dinner each night, The main subject over the table was the UK and Europe. What seems clear is that all the European countries that joined at the beginning of the common market were aware that the ultimate objective was political as well as economic union. My memory and understanding was that we were sold the story that the common market would only be a trading entity. The other two points that came over very clearly, one from a German colleague called Attila( I had to smile) is that the many wars over the last few hundred years weigh heavy on the mindset of the Europeans. Whilst we were bombed etc in both wars we were never invaded and it's been clearly stated by both France and Germany that closer political and economic union would prevent this ever happening again. One from a French colleague who sees that we in Europe have been pushed together by the trading groups that are China and North America. When I pointed out that it is the politicians who in my view, have pushed us together, she didn't agree. We also discussed the significant economic differences between France and Germany and the UK versus the Eastern European countries who are or have joined. She saw this as a reason for having a two tier EU It was a calm debate but ultimately we are seen as a naughty boy troublemaker. That's the thing though, crime, actual crime is down over recent years, it is the perception of crime that is the problem. I wouldn't disagree, my point was more about the fact that we have our own criminals rather than levels of crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 Keg, discussions like that with European colleagues are always fun and no matter what the subject is, in my experience at least, they always seem to think that the UK is a naughty boy trouble maker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodp Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 We probably are, but it's that "get out the way" mindset that made Britain great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 Leaving the EU may have an effect on the migrant influx on the basis that the reforms to the benefit system that the EU blocked last week could be brought into effect if the UK left the EU. There would be nothing to stop the UK refusing to pay benefits to economic migrants. That is why Cameron isn't mentioning it right now. He tried and failed to get reforms through the EU but doesn't want to draw attention to the fact that outside the EU those reforms would be possible. No benefits = less illegal migration To echo other posts; it won't totally stop illegal immigration as there will always be jobs in farming, factories and hotels for cheap illegal labour. That's why Bliar allowed the migrants to flood in over fifteen years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 We probably are, but it's that "get out the way" mindset that made Britain great. I wholeheartedly agree Rod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 Keg, discussions like that with European colleagues are always fun and no matter what the subject is, in my experience at least, they always seem to think that the UK is a naughty boy trouble maker Yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 That's the thing though, crime, actual crime is down over recent years, it is the perception of crime that is the problem. I disagree. There is a wide scale fiddling of the crime figures that I saw with my own eyes whilst in the police.There was more effort put into fiddling the figures than actually trying to prevent and solve crimes. When you think about it logically the imposition of the NCRS rules meant that reports that would in the past be brushed off as not actually being a crime or dealt with by banging two people's heads together rather than file a formal report are now all recorded. If someone BELIEVES that they or someone else is a victim of crime it has to be recorded. The advent of social media entails that Dwaine's ex partner can be threatened or called naughty names by his current partner on Facebook or Twitter and if Dwaine's ex reports it the police would have to record a crime. Even though there is no chance or evidence of any assault ever being likely, just someone sounding off, it is recorded as a crime. There is far more cyber crime - frauds committed over the Internet, domestic incidents are all recorded whereas before they may have been brushed off as a civil matter, same with tenant / landlord disputes. From my own experience I was recording far, far more crimes in 2011 than I was in 2001 and I could record more in one day in 2011 than I would have in a month in 1987. Interestingly your signature was used by our then CC back in 2009 or thereabouts in an attempt to quell rebellion in the ranks. It didn't work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armsid Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 how did britain fare before the common market as it was everything started to change after the vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 how did britain fare before the common market as it was everything started to change after the vote we blamed Indian and west Indian immigrants, a murder made the headlines, our cars were the best in the world, and upon leaving school at 15 I could have a choice of apprenticeships, beer was cheap but weak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted February 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 how did britain fare before the common market as it was everything started to change after the vote We had proper winters and I could take as many Bass as I wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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