Spaniel V HWV

[TONY R]

But retrievers are bred to settle. Hpr to run and hunt far and wide. I know they can do it I used one

In equal hands a lab. Chessie or work bred goldy will male the better fowling dog. Peg dogs nor all the trial dogs I have seen on the Marsh are up to much imo no gumption or initiative

The Term HPR is a broad enveloping badge it covers many breeds and these breeds are varieable in what they do and what they tend to be used for, You are talking britany spaniels which are a true pointing springer that do basicaly the same work, they work cover and they are similar ibn physical atributes to the afore said springer.

Most opf the HPRs are very inteligent bidable and quite easy to train they are as wild or as rangey as you want them to be, they are as fidgety in a hide as you will let them be its that simple.

The HPRs i use just get settled down and curl up in a hide they are not impatient or forever whinging and wining its how you train them. Now i will admit the dogs i use are not ideal as waterfowl dogs in all conditions and circumstances, the lack of coat meens you need to try and make allowances for them in some sittuations , that can be a canvas sheet to lie on cover them up if the area you hunt in alows such a luxury or simply a neoprene vest if it does not.

As open marsh retrievers i have big respect for these dogs and dare say a weimeraner or vizla would be similar, the fast run out on any long retrieves is something a lab just can not touch no way, and getting a goose back and dog in when more skeins are up and coming can and has proved to me i like these dogs for SOME wildfowling scenarios.

Now i most certainlyt would not use my GSPs for every wildfowling sittuation and neither would i use my Labrador either, its having a choice or not having a choice that makes the difference here, Labradors are good as wildfowling dogs and i dare say they will get all of it done one way or another, I have one and he gets by just fine, but sadly his age is catching him up now, but i will have another i think.

Springers are a good all rounder they are faster than most Labs in all but long water pulls and again some scenarios would have me wishing i had the springer its each to his own at the end of the day, but to just dissmis the Versatile breeds as a group is folly in my opinion, there are many HPRs that will do the work of the Labrador quite easily and with further ability thrown into the pool that any hunter can make the most of with training and oppotunity.

Large and small munsterlanders are a very handy dog breed any wanabe HPR owner curently running a Labrador could do a lot worse than get one of these. and one breed i will hopefully one day get is The Braque d Auvergne i have seen one in action and that convinced me i want one.

[TONY R]

The biggest challenge with an HPR is getting one bred from a decent sire and dam to start with.

 

I've seen one GSP that would do any job you care to motion better than any of the competing breeds.

 

Tom Brechney has told me in the past he would put a good GSP against any lab in the country.

 

I've also shot over a load of HPRs and haven't seen one I'd give kennel space.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there full square with the GSP , anyone wanting a GSP to do the buisines needs to start by geting david Leytons book its a good read on the breed and its bloodlines. When you are given a quality blank canvas its a good start but what you paint on it is up to you.

Ps i think that Tom Brechney is him in the video i mentioned earlier and i do totaly agree with him, i have never owned or seen any Labrador ( and we have had a few ) that could hold a candle to my GSPs.

Tom Brechney In the afore mentioned video he was shooting a few ducks and using an oldish GSP bitch to retrieve them.

Edited February 27, 2016 by TONY R

[fishbone]

Thanks for all the info everyone. And thank you Tony. You did make some valuable points that no doubt stem from experiance. A breeder of HWV explained it this way. In England, a man who kept dogs for shooting was (historically) generally wealthy and kept a specific breed for each situation encountered on mostly formal shoots. In East Europe however the peasants could only afford one dog who had to earn his keep. They were ruthless in pursuing this breed and today after many generations of breeding now have very versatile dogs that are truly capable. These dogs are relatively new to us in the UK. This makes sense.

 

I've got a bit more thinking to do and some reading too.

 

Thanks again for the input and I'll keep you in the loop.

 

Dan

[pontbeck]

Why are Labradors, Springer and Cocker Spaniels the most popular breeds in this country ? Because they are the most successful . We have several Hprs on our shoot they are average at best and try to get one to retrieve from water ? I have a friend who was determined to have a good GSP , he ended up with a dog to be envious of in every respect. He was almost at his tenth dog before he came across a good one . I would say your chances of coming across a good Lab would be much less than 10 to 1.

[TONY R]

Why are Labradors, Springer and Cocker Spaniels the most popular breeds in this country ? Because they are the most successful . We have several Hprs on our shoot they are average at best and try to get one to retrieve from water ? I have a friend who was determined to have a good GSP , he ended up with a dog to be envious of in every respect. He was almost at his tenth dog before he came across a good one . I would say your chances of coming across a good Lab would be much less than 10 to 1.

They are not for everyone are they, and clearly you wont be knocking down any doors soon to get at one.

[kent]

Tell you honestly in my experience my gwp could carry just about anything. Once jumped a 5 bar gate with a vixen in it mouth. Air scented trails whenever it put it's nose down it was downwind of foot scent - this was sometimes great other times when scent wasn't able to lift it was a pain and had to put him spot on the spot. The lab does both but not as strong on air scent, way better as a Retriever that's why they are the world's most popular working dog by numbers

 

There are labs and labs there are HPRs and HPRs

However I could in no way recomend one to a first timer. One to a Wildfowler or one to a pigeon shooter

In fact I won't give another space but I might get a pointer or setter one day

[TONY R]

Tell you honestly in my experience my gwp could carry just about anything. Once jumped a 5 bar gate with a vixen in it mouth. Air scented trails whenever it put it's nose down it was downwind of foot scent - this was sometimes great other times when scent wasn't able to lift it was a pain and had to put him spot on the spot. The lab does both but not as strong on air scent, way better as a Retriever that's why they are the world's most popular working dog by numbers

 

There are labs and labs there are HPRs and HPRs

However I could in no way recomend one to a first timer. One to a Wildfowler or one to a pigeon shooter

In fact I won't give another space but I might get a pointer or setter one day

I have not ever seen this,that Labs are superior on scenting to the GSPs they just are not in my experience the gsps find geese ducks in reedbeds very quickly if you work them the right way and they learn real fast. I have had Labradors since childhood and my family before that they retrieve and are strong enough to cary bigger birds etc repeatedly in a peg dog sittuation or geese wildfowling etc, they are compitent swimers and they do get the job done. On retrieving i will say this they simply do not come bomb proof as a retriever and i will say, i have seen a few Labradors that certainly initialy used thair eyes far too much for their own good, marking a fall and being quite stubon on this taking far more effort to get them to acctualy use their nose. than lets say a springer in a similarage level of training.

This is not all Labradors i admit that, but i have seen this quite often, you can get around it with persiverance but i honestly feel some labs mark fall and act on it far too much.

One other feature i have seen with Quite a lot of Labradors is BANK DANCE SYNDROME, (bobbing about on the bank not entering the water watching shot waterfowl drift off on the tide) this is an anoying trait common to the breed and involves Dogs that are owned by people who stand down their dogs at the end of the season and dont keep on with the training rageme therough the summer, then in september october they wheel out the dog brush it off and expect it to retrieve like it used to.

Sure sometimes all is well but i must say i have seen more Labradors BANK DANCE than ever i have springers they once they are compitent in any watyer tidal or not are strong on entry very strong.

Now i will say this is training thats at fault, but i have seen it more in Labradors than anything else.

[al4x]

The simple answer to this in most circumstances is get the dog you want as it will presumably be a pet that comes shooting. Shooting wise hpr's are good fun, I have two, both beat, one has a half decent retrieve and both find deer. They are the ones at the end of the day that want to carry on.... You need to exercise a lot, train a lot and accept it might not like being on peg but when out rough shooting nothing touches them.

Mine are fantastic with our toddler generally you just treat them like most other dogs. Watch the breeding don't go for hot continental bred versions and look for a dog bred to be healthy.

That goes for most breeds but having seen a local goldie from working strains with bad epilepsy it shows the more homework you do the better

[E.w.]

Well I keep spaniel and labs, have shot over them ant trailed them with success, but I know nothing of the HPR breads, so I'd like to thank you all on this thread, it's bean interesting Tony I wish I'd come across you years ago, I'd have learnt a thing or two off you I'm sure, it's bean great reading, as for the op get the dog you want and give it a go, best of luck.

[kent]

I have not ever seen this,that Labs are superior on scenting to the GSPs they just are not in my experience the gsps find geese ducks in reedbeds very quickly if you work them the right way and they learn real fast. I have had Labradors since childhood and my family before that they retrieve and are strong enough to cary bigger birds etc repeatedly in a peg dog sittuation or geese wildfowling etc, they are compitent swimers and they do get the job done. On retrieving i will say this they simply do not come bomb proof as a retriever and i will say, i have seen a few Labradors that certainly initialy used thair eyes far too much for their own good, marking a fall and being quite stubon on this taking far more effort to get them to acctualy use their nose. than lets say a springer in a similarage level of training.

This is not all Labradors i admit that, but i have seen this quite often, you can get around it with persiverance but i honestly feel some labs mark fall and act on it far too much.

One other feature i have seen with Quite a lot of Labradors is BANK DANCE SYNDROME, (bobbing about on the bank not entering the water watching shot waterfowl drift off on the tide) this is an anoying trait common to the breed and involves Dogs that are owned by people who stand down their dogs at the end of the season and dont keep on with the training rageme therough the summer, then in september october they wheel out the dog brush it off and expect it to retrieve like it used to.

Sure sometimes all is well but i must say i have seen more Labradors BANK DANCE than ever i have springers they once they are compitent in any watyer tidal or not are strong on entry very strong.

Now i will say this is training thats at fault, but i have seen it more in Labradors than anything else.

 

Heck you have seen some badly trained labs. A wildfowling dog should be trained in the dark mainly or long marks

Bank dance? Now we are having a laugh I know many Hpr that won't even go in the water

I said Hpr air scent and hence run downwind of foot scent. When air scenting is poor they struggle more

If a bird was a few hundred yards off on a good day with my gwp downwind he would have been bang on it no doubt in my mind but took a while to understand they track downwind ( a factor that is allowed for in tracking tests)

 

Bit title n tat this but talk of labs that don't go in water and dance on the bank shows total bias from the true picture so I am out

[paulnix]

Am a spaniel man myself but if I wanted a dog to do as you want it would def be a Vizsla or however you spell it, if it was just for pigeon hide work though i'd use a spaniel, mine would sit all day long and not make a fuss but for foreshore I would go with a Vizsla, we got 2 pickers up with them on a shoot I beat on and they are seriously good at the job and on a couple of drives on the estuary they are in and out with the bird often before the labs are in, also I never seen anything to think it would be anything but great with children or other dogs.

Spaniel would be handy if you went rough shooting or felt like beating on a driven shoot, Vizsla wouldn't work the hard cover like a Spaniel but would be very wellcome in the picking up line.

[kent]

And I suppose some of those guys over the pond with pointing labs will tell us they are better than HPRs

Seriously doubt this aswell

 

A guy in one of the wildfowling clubs I am in has a pair of visla. They don't even swim

However they can retrieve and are reputed to be very good on the Moor

 

I have known some very good spaniels on the Saltmarsh and they often pick others lost birds walking off coz they are always looking in hope. Non settle really well. Non dive and the best of them simply can't match the true water dogs in difficult current

My lab when he was just s puppy swam out to a ess in trouble and panicking in a big flow

I was keeping him out the water on purpose but in he went anyway swam circles calmly round it and it calmed right down and made it to the bank

He did the same with me when I had my near drowning

[scotslad]

Possibly it depends on the dogs u've seen. I'm sure ur dogs are excellent tony, would be great to see them work. Don't think anyone is saying they can't do it with right training, just that not as suited as a lab as it was actually bred for the jobs so u will have to put a lot of extra work in to get to the same standard

 

I've been to a few training days/wknd's for hpr's as well as clubs etc and watching tests/trials as well as more normal gungog club stuff and doing a lot of beating/picking up.

The vast majority of hpr's i've seen are very poor and more of a hinderance, if hpr's are so easily trained why do so many trainers routinely use the FF and pinch collars?

Have u honestly never seen an hpr do a 'bank dance' like someone said above most of the smooth coated breeds have big problems going into water.

When u speak to Tommy he's got some great old trialling stories with other dogs refusing to enter water for the final test and throwing stones in to attempt to tempt them in.

Honestly can't ever remember seeing a lab not keen on swimming, usually keeping them out of water is the problem.

In my area still a lot of old fashioned local bred beating line labs so proper coats,heads, tails and enter cover nae bother

 

In my opinion even the very best dogs i've seen trained by the top trainers when u come to 'normal' gundog shoot day work (picking up/beating) they are only as good as an decent lab. But have took a lot of training to get them to that standard

Even for the stalking/blood tracking in denmark still think 30-40% of the dogs on schwiss hound tracked register are labs, so capable with right training of following 24/48 hr foot scent too

 

Often trainers are blinkered by there favourite breeds (possibly i am too) but not really a true lab person, mibee not seen the right hpr yet?

But have never seen any hpr on a shoot day do anything that special, don't get me wrong the best do very well but in my opinion aren't doing anything a lab couldn't do. And most of the hpr's i've seen are pretty terrible, but thats more the trainers fualt than the dogs/breeds

 

I think i'll always have an hpr in kennel and possibly would like to trial them in future (still hoping my present 1 might make the grade, but very 'hot' infact too hot for me) but i do struggle to see the whole hpr versitile gundog role. Jack of all trades master of none springs to mind.

I still think if u don't need a dog to point very little point in buying an hpr, but i am quite boring and old fashioned an just want a dog to do the job and not be a fashion statement. Sames true for the craze for yellow/fox red labs years ago couldnae give them away

 

Horses for courses thou, just becuase it might not be the right horse u can still get it to do the job

[TONY R]

Not biasesed against Labradors at all, just saying what i have seen, and where did i ever say they were well trained Labradors? , i stated they were neglegent in off season training and mearly outlined issues i have seen with the breed.

i will get another Labrador when this curent one as gone, he is 11 now i am due a Labrador in fact overdue perhaps.

HPRs Swiming, they can be hard to get to swim if we are talking GSPs Vizlas GWPs etc, but as before they have to be entered to water properly, i have a young GSP at the moment he wont even walk through pudles if he can get away with it, but the3 second it clicks in his head the swim results in a retrieve and that lust takes over hgim, you will have to move heaven and earth to stop him entering water then when he is off duty.

Now wile we are on with this HPR versatile breed thing, there are a whole lot more breeds than the few GSPs (probably from show stock if the truth be known) GWPs one generaly sees, Britany spaniels thrive in water and Munsterlanders are a fantastic water dog, swim retrieve strong in fact a discription i once read on The large munsterlander was this, they are rather like a swamp collie( Golden retriever to you and me) with a more forgiving coat that points.

They have verging on springer like drive and agility esspecialy the Small munsterlanders and you have probably a better chance of buying a Munsterlander from working bacxkground than you have a Golden retriever.

And as for not steady Spinones are horizontaly steady so laid back they could well be donald sutherland charecter the tank comander in kelly heroes.

Many other HPRs out there Barac italianos Long haired pointers and the various drath variants Thuringer strain and the likes of that.

There will be a hunter pointer from the continent that ticks all the right boxes for you, once you are working one that locks on point and you walk up it pushes and you simply take the bird its awesome, i never forget my first shot over my first GSP it was acctualy quite emotional, and when they walk back with the bird its truly something else.

I did meen what i said earlier i do regret not having a Good HPR sooner in my life it is a genuine regret, and it was a free video from kent cartridge company which tipped me over the edge, on that video an american kent cartridge company manager was hunting over a gsp in the video, weatching that dog made me decide i wanted to try one of these for myself, i did my research asked a lot of questions and then made my move and the dog did delliver the goods and i loved every second i was out with that dog until his suden death 9 short years later.

I did learn a lot and i went on to leaqrn, and here i am today with confidence enough to take on a hot under the collar German bloodlined Dog not for the fain hearted perhaps, but i will get there and i am sure i wont get everything right, but i will have a bl88dy good try and i will lear a lot in this interesting proses i can be assured of that.

Dont knock it till you have tried it, Versatiles are gret if you put the time in on them and get the basics right in sellection and early training.

[TONY R]

Possibly it depends on the dogs u've seen. I'm sure ur dogs are excellent tony, would be great to see them work. Don't think anyone is saying they can't do it with right training, just that not as suited as a lab as it was actually bred for the jobs so u will have to put a lot of extra work in to get to the same standard

 

I've been to a few training days/wknd's for hpr's as well as clubs etc and watching tests/trials as well as more normal gungog club stuff and doing a lot of beating/picking up.

The vast majority of hpr's i've seen are very poor and more of a hinderance, if hpr's are so easily trained why do so many trainers routinely use the FF and pinch collars?

Have u honestly never seen an hpr do a 'bank dance' like someone said above most of the smooth coated breeds have big problems going into water.

When u speak to Tommy he's got some great old trialling stories with other dogs refusing to enter water for the final test and throwing stones in to attempt to tempt them in.

Honestly can't ever remember seeing a lab not keen on swimming, usually keeping them out of water is the problem.

In my area still a lot of old fashioned local bred beating line labs so proper coats,heads, tails and enter cover nae bother

 

In my opinion even the very best dogs i've seen trained by the top trainers when u come to 'normal' gundog shoot day work (picking up/beating) they are only as good as an decent lab. But have took a lot of training to get them to that standard

Even for the stalking/blood tracking in denmark still think 30-40% of the dogs on schwiss hound tracked register are labs, so capable with right training of following 24/48 hr foot scent too

 

Often trainers are blinkered by there favourite breeds (possibly i am too) but not really a true lab person, mibee not seen the right hpr yet?

But have never seen any hpr on a shoot day do anything that special, don't get me wrong the best do very well but in my opinion aren't doing anything a lab couldn't do. And most of the hpr's i've seen are pretty terrible, but thats more the trainers fualt than the dogs/breeds

 

I think i'll always have an hpr in kennel and possibly would like to trial them in future (still hoping my present 1 might make the grade, but very 'hot' infact too hot for me) but i do struggle to see the whole hpr versitile gundog role. Jack of all trades master of none springs to mind.

I still think if u don't need a dog to point very little point in buying an hpr, but i am quite boring and old fashioned an just want a dog to do the job and not be a fashion statement. Sames true for the craze for yellow/fox red labs years ago couldnae give them away

 

Horses for courses thou, just becuase it might not be the right horse u can still get it to do the job

I only have a young GSP at the moment and trust me he is not perfect, but he will be and when i hopefully get him something like i will gladly show anyone who is receptive to these breeds just how good it is to shoot over a good HPR, he has the bloodlines for sure, and he is rather a thourghbred in temprament too, Now if i am up to the task here remains to be seen, but like everything in life give it your best shot see what happens. But remember you got to be in it to win it be that motorcycle trials or my second love Hunting preferably with dogs any dog. If you nhave not got a HPR of your choice you wont be in it and you wont win it.

And i just could be you dont want to be, i can understand that the comfort a nice steady Labrador offers is sweet its all you need perhaps and i would not want to be without my Labrodor any more than anyone else, but IF you want what a versatile ofers and are put off by the few you have seen that dont perform, DONT BE THERE IS light at the end of the road they are not all that bad.

And if by all this light hearted banter i swing just ONE OTHER to give this HPR roller coaster a try then i concider that a roaring sucsess... Thank me later I take all major credit cards. Very Gracefully. :lol:

[scotslad]

I think roller coaster is very apt when dealing with hpr's. They really can be very hard work with massive variations between lines and even litter siblings.

 

Seen most of the breeds work at various things over years, always surprised not mre people want brittanies as seem far more suited to trying to make into a beating/shooting dog but only seen a couple, not anywhere near as far ranging and driven as ur gsp/gwp/vizsla.

 

Out of all hprs i would not take a viz if u paid me and not that keen on gsp's either (mainly due to their coat, dislike for water) but the few HWV have really impressed me, same with some KG but they were all owned by a good trainer, and i quite like the more danish type of GWP seem a less 'sharp' type of GWP. The BI can be very slow watching them esp when the dog running before was mick's ftch/champion winning bitch a real hunting machine on grouse. Like chalk and cheese but still plodded on and found grouse

 

 

Personally wouldn't reccommend an hpr for a mate wanting a dog to do wot OP does and would try to talk him out of it. Just as i have here

Also not easy for a 1st working dog, i've learnt a massive amount with mine, really wish he was my 2nd hpr as he is the most gifted, intelligent and driven dog i've ever had, definately has that something special about him, but bloody infuriating. If honest too much of a dog for me and i have made mistakes with him too. When he was youngr a few trainers actually wanted to buy him, quite a few times on a bad day i regret NOT getting rid of him, sometimes i'd give him away.

Far harder work than all my other dogs put together

 

 

Honestly u really would be better with a lab but if u decide on an HWV/hpr get along to an hpr training club/spring counting test/FT see the dogs in action speak to the owners/breeders get a feel the the bred and best lines for u. Basically do ur homework, althou if ur only speaking to breeders of that 1 breed can have very breed tinted specs on

 

Wotever u get joining a training club or getting 1-1 lessons is always well worth it, a really good investment in something which will make ur shooting either enjoyable or a pain for next 10+ years. Because a poorly trained dog of any breed is a pain

 

Rory major's training dvd is very good but expensive but 4 discs, tommy brechanny's (probably the 1 which tony mentioned) is also very good despite being ancient, i found a copy somewhere on dvd for cheap money. is a paul french 1 so mibee on his site, think i found it on ebay or somewhere cheap thou

Edited February 28, 2016 by scotslad

[Dirty Harry]

I've trained with and shot over most of the HPR breeds. I've been on shoots with labs and spaniels. I have 2 GWP's.

I think most of it comes down to the trainer because I've seen good and bad in both. If you want to put the time and effort in I'm sure you will succeed.

Anyway what's this about HPR's not liking the water. I can't keep mine out.

[TONY R]

I've trained with and shot over most of the HPR breeds. I've been on shoots with labs and spaniels. I have 2 GWP's.

I think most of it comes down to the trainer because I've seen good and bad in both. If you want to put the time and effort in I'm sure you will succeed.

Anyway what's this about HPR's not liking the water. I can't keep mine out.

Carefull the Lab maffia wont like that, i am safe the R in my name stands tor Retrieveranzani Part of the imfamous sicilian Labradeni family so i am safe see. :lol:

[E.w.]

Come on Tony be fair, I worked and trailed some good dogs labs, and like I say know nothing of the HPR breeds. The way I see it is if the dog whatever breed it may be works (does what you want surely thats ok ) not everyone like me is a control freak when it comes to handling a dog, I'm sure the op can have plenty of fun with a HPR.

 

And no more naughty comments about us lab people or I'll smack your hand.

[TONY R]

:lol: Ok DON ... i meen EW