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Illegal Shotgun Stock?


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I owe a mate a bit of cash and I know he fancies a tactical type Sec2 shotgun. So as I had a bit of a windfall on Sun. night I thought I`d do a bit of shopping around and see what was available. I`ve seen the Revo and I know that Hatsan do something similar. Looked at both models and have asked for prices on them from my friendly neighbourhood RFD.

 

Looking at the Hatsans I noticed their section 1 has an extendable stock and that on the Hatsan UK site it can be purchased seperately.http://hatsanshotguns.co.uk/product/263/

 

So I asked my RFD if he could get me a price on that. He`s just messaged me back and told me that Edgar Bros don`t stock it as it doesn`t comply with UK law.

 

This is the stock

 

telescopic_stock.jpg

 

Can anyone shed any light on this?

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If my memory serves me correct I had a Remington pump action a few years back which had a retractable stock fitted, very similar to the pictures above.

I was told it was illegal as the shotgun was too short because the stock was adjustable so therefore no stock was fitted irrelevant if was foldable or adjustable in ways.

Hope this helps, things might have changed since then though, best person to speak is your local feo.

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Perhaps when it is not extended it makes the gun shorter than the allowed length of 60cm ?

 

 

I may be wrong but the only way i can see that it would be illegal is if it was attached to a semi auto or pump action and it made the guns over all length less than 40 inches

 

 

If my memory serves me correct I had a Remington pump action a few years back which had a retractable stock fitted, very similar to the pictures above.

I was told it was illegal as the shotgun was too short because the stock was adjustable so therefore no stock was fitted irrelevant if was foldable or adjustable in ways.

Hope this helps, things might have changed since then though, best person to speak is your local feo.

 

Yeah overall length is the logical reason. It just baffles me that the stock is available on the Hatsan UK website. I`ve just e-mailed their sales dept so maybe they can clarify the situation.

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Don't deal with them much but there is something if my memory serves me correctly that a foldable or extending stock does not count towards the overall length.

 

If I've got the wrong I apologies.

 

I`ll look into it. Thanks for the reply.

 

If your a BASC member or your mate is then Bill Harrimans take would be interesting if when at its smallest the length is over 40" the rule is designed I think to prevent these types,

 

clip_image002_0015.jpg&&0

 

We`re both in BaSC. Might give them a shout and see what they say. I don`t suppose you have an e-mail for Bill do you?

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Don't deal with them much but there is something if my memory serves me correctly that a foldable or extending stock does not count towards the overall length.

 

If I've got the wrong I apologies.

Think you've remembered that wrong.

 

They take the length at its shortest as default; so a folding stock in the folded position & a telescopic one fully collapsed.

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Response from Hatsan UK

 

"The stock is UK legal, we have three in stock or we have the pistol grip mpa stock in as well."

 

So, none the wiser why Edgar Bros believe it`s illegal but that would seem to clear things up.

 

Edit: Nice quick response from Hatsan UK, wasn`t expecting to receive a reply today.

Edited by Danger-Mouse
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Stock in OP post is legal, because it is fixed, adjustable length stock. Saddlery and gunroom sells stock like that with some Mossberg 590's. Stock in HDAV's post is still legal, but doesn't count in the overall length of the shotgun. If You attached it to a gun with 33" barrell+8" receiver (41" without the stock), that makes it legal... Funny looking gun that would be!

Edited by londonercsecse
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Response from Hatsan UK

 

"The stock is UK legal, we have three in stock or we have the pistol grip mpa stock in as well."

 

So, none the wiser why Edgar Bros believe it`s illegal but that would seem to clear things up.

 

Edit: Nice quick response from Hatsan UK, wasn`t expecting to receive a reply today.

Hatsan UK has nothing to do with HATSAN-he is a just a dealer - he is the same guy behind CZ UK,, Marlin UK etc etc he has just bought the domain names.

 

My money would be in believing what the importer says and not someone who is just trying to sell a grey imported stock.

 

If you fit the stock to a semi or a pump and its overall length is less than 40" then it is illegal.

Edited by MiLisCer
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My money would be in believing what the importer says and not someone who is just trying to sell a grey imported stock.

 

If you fit the stock to a semi or a pump and its overall length is less than 40" then it is illegal.

 

The onus is on the individual to ensure they conform with the 40" OAL specification in place. The stocks themselves are not illegal - or indeed, controlled in any way.

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Hatsan UK has nothing to do with HATSAN-he is a just a dealer - he is the same guy behind CZ UK,, Marlin UK etc etc he has just bought the domain names.

 

My money would be in believing what the importer says and not someone who is just trying to sell a grey imported stock.

 

If you fit the stock to a semi or a pump and its overall length is less than 40" then it is illegal.

 

Cheers, I wasn`t aware of that. Will have to do some more checking I guess.

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Copied and pasted from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia...wed-off_shotgun

 

" Shotguns held on a shotgun certificate are subject to a legal minimum barrel length of 24 inches (61cm), but there is no limit on overall length meaning that 'pistol grip only' shotguns are legal, though the barrels would be longer than most 'sawn-off shotguns'. Shotguns held on a shotgun certificate must either have no magazine, or a non-removable magazine capable of holding no more than two rounds.

Semi-automatic or pump action shotguns held on a firearms certificate (which are not subject to any magazine restrictions) are subject both to a minimum barrel length of 24 inches (61cm) and a minimum overall length of 40 inches (102cm). This precludes legal ownership of 'short' shotguns of this type on a firearms certificate.

Shotguns held on a firearms certificate that are neither semi-automatic nor pump action are subject only to a minimum barrel length of 12 inches (30cm), well within the definition of a 'sawn-off shotgun'. Muzzleloading guns are exempt from this restriction and may have barrels of any length "

 

So from this , if a pump or semi-auto is held on a SGC any length is ok as long as the barrel is 24" min.

If the semi-auto or pump is held on a FAC there is a minimum length of 40"

So an extending stock would be legal on the SGC gun

Edited by TDS
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Copied and pasted from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia...wed-off_shotgun

 

" Shotguns held on a shotgun certificate are subject to a legal minimum barrel length of 24 inches (61cm), but there is no limit on overall length meaning that 'pistol grip only' shotguns are legal, though the barrels would be longer than most 'sawn-off shotguns'. Shotguns held on a shotgun certificate must either have no magazine, or a non-removable magazine capable of holding no more than two rounds.

Semi-automatic or pump action shotguns held on a firearms certificate (which are not subject to any magazine restrictions) are subject both to a minimum barrel length of 24 inches (61cm) and a minimum overall length of 40 inches (102cm). This precludes legal ownership of 'short' shotguns of this type on a firearms certificate.

Shotguns held on a firearms certificate that are neither semi-automatic nor pump action are subject only to a minimum barrel length of 12 inches (30cm), well within the definition of a 'sawn-off shotgun'. Muzzleloading guns are exempt from this restriction and may have barrels of any length "

 

So from this , if a pump or semi-auto is held on a SGC any length is ok as long as the barrel is 24" min.

If the semi-auto or pump is held on a FAC there is a minimum length of 40"

So an extending stock would be legal on the SGC gun

 

That's wrong re. Section 2 shotguns (semi &/or pump) having different criteria to the same type of held on S.1

Use the wording of the FIREARMS ACTS for reference on this , NOT WikiPedia!!

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Copied and pasted from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia...wed-off_shotgun

 

" Shotguns held on a shotgun certificate are subject to a legal minimum barrel length of 24 inches (61cm), but there is no limit on overall length meaning that 'pistol grip only' shotguns are legal, though the barrels would be longer than most 'sawn-off shotguns'. Shotguns held on a shotgun certificate must either have no magazine, or a non-removable magazine capable of holding no more than two rounds.

Semi-automatic or pump action shotguns held on a firearms certificate (which are not subject to any magazine restrictions) are subject both to a minimum barrel length of 24 inches (61cm) and a minimum overall length of 40 inches (102cm). This precludes legal ownership of 'short' shotguns of this type on a firearms certificate.

Shotguns held on a firearms certificate that are neither semi-automatic nor pump action are subject only to a minimum barrel length of 12 inches (30cm), well within the definition of a 'sawn-off shotgun'. Muzzleloading guns are exempt from this restriction and may have barrels of any length "

 

So from this , if a pump or semi-auto is held on a SGC any length is ok as long as the barrel is 24" min.

If the semi-auto or pump is held on a FAC there is a minimum length of 40"

So an extending stock would be legal on the SGC gun

. WRONG!
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Copied and pasted from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia...wed-off_shotgun

 

" Shotguns held on a shotgun certificate are subject to a legal minimum barrel length of 24 inches (61cm), but there is no limit on overall length meaning that 'pistol grip only' shotguns are legal, though the barrels would be longer than most 'sawn-off shotguns'. Shotguns held on a shotgun certificate must either have no magazine, or a non-removable magazine capable of holding no more than two rounds.

Semi-automatic or pump action shotguns held on a firearms certificate (which are not subject to any magazine restrictions) are subject both to a minimum barrel length of 24 inches (61cm) and a minimum overall length of 40 inches (102cm). This precludes legal ownership of 'short' shotguns of this type on a firearms certificate.

Shotguns held on a firearms certificate that are neither semi-automatic nor pump action are subject only to a minimum barrel length of 12 inches (30cm), well within the definition of a 'sawn-off shotgun'. Muzzleloading guns are exempt from this restriction and may have barrels of any length "

 

So from this , if a pump or semi-auto is held on a SGC any length is ok as long as the barrel is 24" min.

If the semi-auto or pump is held on a FAC there is a minimum length of 40"

So an extending stock would be legal on the SGC gun

 

I've just edited that section of Wikipedia - it included a lot of misinformation and only explained some of the legislation regarding the distinction between shotguns and smoothbore Section 1 firearms under UK legislation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawed-off_shotgun#United_Kingdom

Edited by A.J.P.
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Its all on the thread;

 

SGC O/U, SbS, bolt-action or lever action;

 

Must have no magazine or a magazine that is only capably of holding 2 rounds or less

Must have a 24" or greater barrel

No OAL requirement

 

SGC Pump or semi

 

As above but must also have an OAL of 40" or greater

 

FAC O/U, SbS, bolt-action or lever action;

 

No magazine capacity restriction

Must have a 12" or greater barrel

Must have a 24" or greater OAL

 

FAC pump or semi

 

No magazine restriction

Must have a 24" or greater barrel

Must have a 40" or greater OAL

 

 

Section 5 of the 1968 Firearms Act covers the OP's question;

 

(ac) any self-loading or pump-action smoothbore gun (which is not an air weapon or chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges) and either has a barrel less than 24" in length or is less than 40" in overall length.

 

i.e. Its a S5/prohibited shotgun if its a pump or semi with either a sub 24" barrel or sub 40" OAL.

 

If you want that stock you have to make sure the barrel/receiver gives the 40" OAL.

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