Harry136 Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 (edited) Its not illegal to own the stock, it only becomes illegal when its fitted to the gun .So in theory you could have the stock, remove the collapsible rod and replace it with one cut to the correct length for your mate and welded. It will look like a collapsible but be legal as it wont be able to collapse. That's what I did on my Hatsan escort, FEO was happy as it physically couldn't retract Edited March 24, 2016 by Harry136 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J.P. Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 (edited) Its not illegal to own the stock, it only becomes illegal when its fitted to the gun .So in theory you could have the stock, remove the collapsible rod and replace it with one cut to the correct length for your mate and welded. It will look like a collapsible but be legal as it wont be able to collapse. That's what I did on my Hatsan escort, FEO was happy as it physically couldn't retract The ability of a stock to collapse is only relevant in this instance if, once removed leaving only the buffer tube, it brings the overall length of a pump action or semi-auto shotgun to less than 40". There is no legislation banning the attachment of adjustable stocks to shotguns as long as any OAL specification is met. Edited March 24, 2016 by A.J.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted March 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 I`ve contacted BaSC. We`ll see what they say. And here is what they said . . . The shotgun that you refer to comes in two versions, 7+1 which requires a firearm certificate, and a 2+1 which requires a shotgun certificate. By fitting the telescopic stock to the 7+1 version, you would convert the shotgun into a Section 5 prohibited firearm. This is because Section 5(1)(ac) of the Firearms Act 1968 prohibits any self-loading or pump-action smooth-bore gun which is not an air weapon or chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24 inches in length or is less than 40 inches in length overall. In measuring the overall length, any detachable, folding, retractable or other movable butt-stock should be disregarded in accordance with section 5(8) of the 1968 Act. The fitting of the telescopic stock to a section 2 version of the shotgun (the 2+1) will not affect the classification. The definition of a shotgun conatained within Section 1(3) of the Act is a smooth-bore gun (not being an air gun) which has a barrel not less than 24 inches in length and does not have any barrel with a bore exceeding 2 inches in diameter; either has no magazine or has a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges; and is not a revolver gun. Overall length is not a factor. Kind regards, Paul Dale Firearms Officer The British Association for Shooting and Conservation A nice, clear, informative answer. I know it`s probably nothing that hasn`t already been pointed out in the thread but I`d rather be safe than sorry. My thanks to everyone that responded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddler Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 And here is what they said . . . The shotgun that you refer to comes in two versions, 7+1 which requires a firearm certificate, and a 2+1 which requires a shotgun certificate. By fitting the telescopic stock to the 7+1 version, you would convert the shotgun into a Section 5 prohibited firearm. This is because Section 5(1)(ac) of the Firearms Act 1968 prohibits any self-loading or pump-action smooth-bore gun which is not an air weapon or chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24 inches in length or is less than 40 inches in length overall. In measuring the overall length, any detachable, folding, retractable or other movable butt-stock should be disregarded in accordance with section 5(8) of the 1968 Act. The fitting of the telescopic stock to a section 2 version of the shotgun (the 2+1) will not affect the classification. The definition of a shotgun conatained within Section 1(3) of the Act is a smooth-bore gun (not being an air gun) which has a barrel not less than 24 inches in length and does not have any barrel with a bore exceeding 2 inches in diameter; either has no magazine or has a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges; and is not a revolver gun. Overall length is not a factor. Kind regards, Paul Dale Firearms Officer The British Association for Shooting and Conservation A nice, clear, informative answer. I know it`s probably nothing that hasn`t already been pointed out in the thread but I`d rather be safe than sorry. My thanks to everyone that responded. Yip....Nice, clear, informative & WRONG!! The summation of Section 2 pump & semi's NOT needing to meet 40" o.a.l. is a pure misinterpretation! ALL pumps/semi's MUST comply with the 24" barrel/40" o.a.l. rules: the only difference THEN is whether they are 2+1 & on SGC or are multi-shot'removable magazine & are on FAC He also makes the MASSIVE ASSUMPTION that fitting the stock WILL make the gun S.5 !! Wonder what salary he's getting, as from that reply he's due it in Mickey Mouse dollars! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 As above, there is no differentiation in Section 5 (ac) of the 1968 act between FAC/SGC (I.e. Magazine capacity) semi auto and pump shotguns. The first word is ANY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J.P. Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 Yip....Nice, clear, informative & WRONG!! The summation of Section 2 pump & semi's NOT needing to meet 40" o.a.l. is a pure misinterpretation! He also makes the MASSIVE ASSUMPTION that fitting the stock WILL make the gun S.5 !! I couldn't agree more. There's no basis to his statement that: "By fitting the telescopic stock to the 7+1 version, you would convert the shotgun into a Section 5 prohibited firearm." The law as written states: "(8) For the purposes of subsection (1)(aba) and (ac) above, any detachable, folding, retractable or other movable butt-stock shall be disregarded in measuring the length of any firearm." The buttstock itself is not measured as part of the OAL, but what it's attached to - for example an AR15 buffer tube, certainly would be. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/5#section-5-8-9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesj Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 (edited) Yip....Nice, clear, informative & WRONG!! The summation of Section 2 pump & semi's NOT needing to meet 40" o.a.l. is a pure misinterpretation! ALL pumps/semi's MUST comply with the 24" barrel/40" o.a.l. rules: the only difference THEN is whether they are 2+1 & on SGC or are multi-shot'removable magazine & are on FAC He also makes the MASSIVE ASSUMPTION that fitting the stock WILL make the gun S.5 !! Wonder what salary he's getting, as from that reply he's due it in Mickey Mouse dollars! But section 5(8) of the 1968 Act does say A person commits an offence if, without the authority of the Defence Council [F1or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998)], he has in his possession, or purchases or acquires, or manufactures, sells or transfers— (aba)any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon, F5. . . a muzzle-loading gun or a firearm designed as signalling apparatus;] (ac)any self-loading or pump-action smooth-bore gun which is not [F6an air weapon or] chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24 inches in length or F7. . . is less than 40 inches in length overall; For the purposes of subsection (1)(aba) and (ac) above, any detachable, folding, retractable or other movable butt-stock shall be disregarded in measuring the length of any firearm. Looks like another bit of badly worded firearms law Edited March 24, 2016 by bluesj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossberg-operator Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 (edited) So, and how can saddlery and gunroom and the hatsan guys sell the adjustable (length) butt stock from the OP post, already attached to a shotti, if it is not legal? Must be legal. Edited March 25, 2016 by londonercsecse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 29, 2016 Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 please contact Paul with your concerns /accusations David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted March 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 please contact Paul with your concerns /accusations David I`ve e-mailed Paul with a link to the thread and asked if he can take a look and then either reply in here or to me. If he chooses to reply only to me I`ll post the response here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallyshag Posted March 29, 2016 Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 First post on PW outside of saying hello, but I have to ask; Why would you want a SG to look like that in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted March 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 First post on PW outside of saying hello, but I have to ask; Why would you want a SG to look like that in the first place? I don`t, it`s for a friend, who does. That`s a bit like me saying why would you want a shotgun with a SxS configuration? Personally I don`t like SxS guns, not so much because of the look but because of how they feel and shoot. But hey, if you like them it has nothing to do with me. It`s just a personal choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallyshag Posted March 29, 2016 Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 I don`t, it`s for a friend, who does. That`s a bit like me saying why would you want a shotgun with a SxS configuration? Personally I don`t like SxS guns, not so much because of the look but because of how they feel and shoot. But hey, if you like them it has nothing to do with me. It`s just a personal choice. Nowt as queer as folk then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted March 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 Nowt as queer as folk then! Indeed Btw just noticed your avatar . . . Nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallyshag Posted March 29, 2016 Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 Indeed Btw just noticed your avatar . . . Nice LOL, I can't use my 'normal' one I use on another (non shooting) forum - I'd get told off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 Dear All, Paul has clearly tried to point out in his email the difference between the legal limitations on a section 1 firearms and a section 2 firearm. They are not the same, and as Paul has pointed out the relevant bits of the Act that cover this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsbob Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 So does this mean I can saw the stock off my old side by side at the grip, saw the barrels down to just over 24" and it will still be legal as a section 2 shotgun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 Yes! Why on earth you want to do that though is another matter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted March 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 Dear Mr . . ., My advice is based upon firearms legislation. Notwithstanding the differences of opinion expressed, I see no reason to change it. Kind regards, Paul Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 That's absolutely fine but as there is no defence (in court) when it comes S5 firearms his opinion, no matter who he works for, may not stop you going to jail for 5-10 years, even though it would be completely reasonable for a person to rely on such advice to the man on the street. If I was going to be in the market for such a gun I would be after an opinion from the Home Office and them only. A Mr D Wilmer was 'the man' there last time I needed to get an opinion on a S5 issue. Get everything in writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddler Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 Dear Mr . . ., My advice is based upon firearms legislation. Notwithstanding the differences of opinion expressed, I see no reason to change it. Kind regards, Paul Dale Aw, bless.... I'd probably agree with his earlier statement, that o.a.l. rules dont apply to S.2 pumps/semis, but then we'd both be wrong. Checked with 2 FEO's at opposite ends of the UK & several RFDs. ALL said 40" rule applies in either case! Good to see BASC has it's finger on the pulse. Well, I say finger but I mean thumb. Oh, I said "on the pulse"....actually meant "in the soup" Off to look for a national organisation who's staff can read/understand primary legislation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 We can understand the Firearms Act - Paul has given you pointers to the relevant parts of the Act if you still cant understand it then that's not our fault. Interesting you have nameless RFD's and nameless FEO's backing up your point of view...why not ask them to get in touch with Paul, after all we know all the FEO and managers so they will be familiar to us, who are they? Do tell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildrat Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 (edited) Just a quick comment I did this some years ago with an Escort Magnum S/A And was unsure so asked my FAO and he referred it to the force examiner He checked with the home office to be sure AS long as cannot be less than 40 inch when folded / collapsed then OK No issue as is designed to stop hiding of the gun bit long to stuff down trouser leg Wording of act bit woolly Did ask for this information to be logged on to my file so if there was issue I had shown due diligence to comply and have kept copies of the emails Was discussed with Tom Sands and Mike Barker, Force Weapon Examiner & Armourer ,Devon & Cornwall Police Edited May 26, 2019 by Wildrat Additional information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quentyn Posted May 27, 2019 Report Share Posted May 27, 2019 i once saw a pump action with a folding stock but it had a long barrel extension so it was always over 40 inches seemed a waste but was legal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) Roughly the same discussion takes place over some of the aftermarket folding stocks available for Ruger 10/22s. The big dealers wont sell them but there are lots on ebay and you can easily buy them from abroad. Just because you can buy them doesn't appear to have any bearing on the legality of fitting them Edited May 28, 2019 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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