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refilling CO2


hellier0437
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I apologise !

 

I didn't know the specific design of the QB78 and was thinking it would be like the Crosman Ratcatcher I used to have.

 

I still think it sounds dangerous but see what your science teacher thinks. If he is anything like my mate he will have a go at it one day after school.

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i am not going to 'do this anyway' and was only asking for opinions on whether the idea would work.

 

What capacity has the gun chamber?

 

Rough calcs suggest 24g of dry ice would sublimate into about 14,500 cubic cm of co2 quite rapidly.

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i am not going to 'do this anyway' and was only asking for opinions on whether the idea would work.

 

What capacity has the gun chamber?

 

Rough calcs suggest 24g of dry ice would sublimate into about 14,500 cubic cm of co2 quite rapidly.

i think though that once some gas has sublimated, the pressure will be sufficient to prevent any further sublimation. there would be some CO2 gas under pressure ad soe CO2 solid kept solid by the pressure of the gaseous CO2. surely the figure of 14500 is drawn from the fact that one mole of a gaseous substance will occupy 24dm^3. however, ths is only at room temp and pressure.

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Thus I asked for the capacity. My calcs were based on unrestricted expansion.

 

For the record I still think its a silly idea and at some stage you will hurt yourself, I have no problem providing sound scientific advice which leads to a videotape which I can sell to beadle or that fat one offof TV's Emmerdale though :unsure:

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Thus I asked for the capacity. My calcs were based on unrestricted expansion.

 

For the record I still think its a silly idea and at some stage you will hurt yourself, I have no problem providing sound scientific advice which leads to a videotape which I can sell to beadle or that fat one offof TV's Emmerdale though :good:

 

you are still not justifying your position. Of coarse the uncompressed volume cannot be maintained, therwise there would be no pressure to push ot the pellet.

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No, you miss the point. I fully understand how this gun functions and what your idea entails.

 

Since I know nothing of the internal capacity of this gun I simply quoted the volume of gas that would result from the sublimation of 24g of dry ice at room temperature.

 

I am entitled to speculate that in trying to achieve your goal you will likely have a few comic mishaps, without fully justifying my reasons. In my experience when people who don't know what they are doing convince themselves they do - especially with pressure and dry ice involved - there are normally tears :good:

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Thought this may bring a few to their sences!

Technical Information Sheet

TIS No 7 : 2001

Guidelines for the Safe Transportation, Storage, Use

and Disposal of Dry Ice Products

Product Description

Solid Carbon Dioxide - CO2 (dry ice) is very cold: -78oC. It sublimes (turns from a solid) to an asphyxiant gas that is heavier than air. It is important to note that a little bit of dry ice will sublime to a large volume of gas.

Dry ice is manufactured in the form of pellets, slices or blocks and may be supplied loose or in insulated containers.

The risks associated with dry ice in a customer caller-collect situation come from:

• The product (pellets, slices, blocks)

• Types of packaging and insulation used

• The way it is secured whilst in transit

• The type of vehicle being used; and

• The length of time the journey takes

Areas having an impact on the size of the risk include product packaging and insulation. Your supplier will have listed the hazards associated with the product on the wrapper or container in which the dry ice is supplied.

The Material Safety Data Sheet given to you by your supplier will inform you of the action to be taken in the event of an incident or emergency involving dry ice and the health hazards of the product. You should read this carefully before transporting, handling or using dry ice.

TRANSPORTATION

The most significant risks incurred when transporting dry ice are:

• The creation of an unsafe atmosphere due to sublimation of the product (change of state from a solid to a gas) – the product will not “melt†into a liquid.

• Spillage from an insecure load would lead to a higher rate of sublimation as the surface area of the product type increases – pellets being worse than slices that, in turn, are worse than blocks.

• Impact damage / injury - As with any heavy load, dry ice loads MUST BE SECURED.

The following is intended as a guide to help determine if the vehicle in which the ice is being collected is suitable:

AVOID transporting dry ice in the cab of a truck or the passenger compartment of a car. If this is not possible, the load should be well insulated and adequate ventilation must be maintained.

Preferably transport dry ice in vehicles where the driver’s cab is isolated from the load compartment.

TIS No 7 – BCGA © 2001

ALWAYS secure the load compartment doors in the open position before entering. For large “walk-in†load compartments, the doors should be capable of being opened from the inside.

ALWAYS ensure that there is adequate ventilation during transportation and before entering load compartment to unload product.

ALWAYS carry a carbon dioxide (solid) Material Safety Data Sheet in the cab or driver’s compartment of any vehicle that is carrying dry ice.

REMEMBER: These are not hard and fast rules. However, drivers of vehicles carrying dry ice should be aware that the level of risk of an unsafe atmosphere occurring in the vehicle will depend on the following conditions:

• Quantity of dry ice being transported

• Type of packaging and insulation used

• The length of time the product is held in an enclosed space

• The temperature of the load compartment

• Vehicle ventilation – ALWAYS ensure that the heating / air supply is switched to draw in ‘fresh air’ from outside the vehicle.

ALWAYS unload product as soon as possible at the end of the journey and move to a suitable storage location.

STORAGE

ALWAYS store dry ice in an area which is:

• Well ventilated.

• Preferably not below ground.

• Accessible with mechanical lifting equipment (where the ice is stored in large containers).

• Out of direct sunlight and sources of heat.

• Secure – to prevent unauthorised access.

Suitable dry ice containers are available from your supplier. Generally, the principle is – the better the insulation, the slower the sublimation rate and the longer the quality of the product will be maintained.

DO NOT store or use dry ice in any gas tight container. Within large containers, gas rich atmospheres will have built up.

ALWAYS secure the container lid open before reaching in to unload the product.

AVOID leaning into the container for longer than necessary.

WORKING WITH DRY ICE

Many applications of dry ice result in the sublimation of the dry ice volume into the working area.

REMEMBER – a little bit of dry ice will sublime to a large volume of CO2 gas.

ALWAYS seek professional advice on suitable ventilation systems. Use of dry ice will generate gaseous CO2, This may require assessment under the UK COSHH Regulations.

Do not handle dry ice with bare hands. It can cause severe cold burns and frostbite.

DO NOT play with dry ice. Playing games with dry ice is dangerous.

ALWAYS keep dry ice away from children.

USE AN INSULATED CONTAINER TO STORE DRY ICE

DO NOT PLACE IN WORKING REFRIGERATOR OR FREEZER

HOW TO USE DRY ICE

FREEZING – place dry ice above items to be frozen.

DO NOT allow direct contact with items to be frozen as superficial damage / freezer burn may occur.

ALWAYS defrost completely before consumption.

COOLING – place dry ice in bottom of cooler, cover with water ice or insulating material, then place cans, food etc. on top. DO NOT allow direct contact with dry ice. DO NOT put it into drinks

SPECIAL EFFECTS – use gloves to place small amounts of dry ice in hot water for fog. Can be used with a proprietary fog machine.

OTHER USES - 􀂊 fresh meat processing and shipping 􀂊 de-flashing moulded rubber and plastic 􀂊 low temperature testing 􀂊 industrial cleaning (dry ice pellet-blasting) 􀂊 shrink-fitting 􀂊 laboratory cold-traps 􀂊 inerting and purging 􀂊 freeze-branding.

SAFE DISPOSAL

Dry ice sublimates leaving no residue. However, care should be taken when surplus ice remains when the application for which it was intended is completed.

• ALWAYS ensure that dry ice is disposed of in a safe place:

• Well-ventilated area

• Secured against access to passers-by – especially children and animals

• DO NOT dispose of dry ice in an area where CO2 gas can collect in low-lying areas – garage pits, drains, confined spaces, etc.

Any left-over packaging should be disposed of with care and recycled wherever possible.

BRITISH COMPRESSED GASES ASSOCIATION

6 St Mary’s Street, Wallingford, Oxon, OX10 0EL

Tel: 01491 825533

Fax: 01491 826689

This publication may be freely produced, except for advertising, endorsement or commercial purposes. The information it contains is current at March 2001. Please acknowledge the source as British Compressed Gases Association.

Web site: www.bcga.co.uk

webber

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sorry, don't quite see your point. this article is more about the safe transport and handling of dry ice than the possible applications. the fact tha it is cold is not nessecarily a problem as so lond as thick gloves are worn when handling, the risk of burns is dramatically reduced. You seem to have missed my point. There are two ways of getting a gas to change state. one is to pressurise and one is to cool. these two are not mutually exclusive and the means by which a gas is kept in solid state can change while it is still solid. in fact, there is already solid CO2 within the capsuals it is just help by pressure and not temperature as is the case with dry ice. when placed in a sealed container, some of it will sublime and the rest, although it is now warm, will be held in the solid state by the increrase in pressure. there is no way in which this pressure can be greater than the currant opperating pressure because it is the same amount of the same compound being held in the same state, so the same pressure will be required.

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sorry, don't quite see your point. this article is more about the safe transport and handling of dry ice than the possible applications. the fact tha it is cold is not nessecarily a problem as so lond as thick gloves are worn when handling, the risk of burns is dramatically reduced. You seem to have missed my point. There are two ways of getting a gas to change state. one is to pressurise and one is to cool. these two are not mutually exclusive and the means by which a gas is kept in solid state can change while it is still solid. in fact, there is already solid CO2 within the capsuals it is just help by pressure and not temperature as is the case with dry ice. when placed in a sealed container, some of it will sublime and the rest, although it is now warm, will be held in the solid state by the increrase in pressure. there is no way in which this pressure can be greater than the currant opperating pressure because it is the same amount of the same compound being held in the same state, so the same pressure will be required.

Without being offensive mate, you are 18 so probably a yr 13 sixth former who does either chemistry and/or physics? Now although A Level science's are very good and do introduce you to a variety of topics they do not make you the next Newton or Einstien! I have a mate of mine who wouldn't be stupid enough to do this and he a) does silly things and :good: Is at Oxford doing Physics. So he is probably a lot smarter than you are and would acknolodge that this is a stupid idea, epsically considering the little/ if any savings you would make by refilling.

 

If your that bothered with refilling hunt out the kit mentioned prior, If you want to play the mad scientist go to uni and do chemistry!

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I think that three important rules gleaned from the above factsheet are:

 

ALWAYS seek professional advice on suitable ventilation systems. Use of dry ice will generate gaseous CO2, This may require assessment under the UK COSHH Regulations.

DO NOT play with dry ice. Playing games with dry ice is dangerous.

ALWAYS keep dry ice away from children.

 

The first rule I have copied is highlighting both the health risks of using dry ice and some of the legal aspects,

 

However, I think you need to pay special attention to the later two rules ! ! ! :good::lol::lol::lol:

 

I am no expert on CO2 but this sounds like a dangerous thing to try at home.

 

Karl

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Nadan

 

I've given up trying to get this chap to see sence. I obviously know nothing. I'm only technical director of an industrial gas company, we also make dry ice. I dont have time to argue technical detail, but shall look forward to reading the incident report when it filters through the industry grapevine.

 

webber

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I have no problem whatsoever with being incorrect, however, I do object to simply being told that I am wrong with no explanation or justification. I have done my best to justify my thinking but it seems that no one is prepared to offer up a real justification of the contrary train of thought. I accept that I might be wrong but I feel that no other argument will carry any validity unless it is similarly explained. I accept that no one else may offer such an argument.

 

I feel that the sniping about my age or level of education is completely unnecessary and does not contribute anything to the discussion. It seems only a means by which people can avoid actually giving an answer to the question.

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I have no problem whatsoever with being incorrect, however, I do object to simply being told that I am wrong with no explanation or justification. I have done my best to justify my thinking but it seems that no one is prepared to offer up a real justification of the contrary train of thought. I accept that I might be wrong but I feel that no other argument will carry any validity unless it is similarly explained. I accept that no one else may offer such an argument.

 

I feel that the sniping about my age or level of education is completely unnecessary and does not contribute anything to the discussion. It seems only a means by which people can avoid actually giving an answer to the question.

I think you have missed the point YOU asked for advice.

GOOD ADVICE was given.

if you want to blow yourself to smithereens do it

dont ask others to help.

If you feel as you seem to, your education and qualifications, will get the job done

GO FOR IT

 

 

Thought this may bring a few to their sences!

Technical Information Sheet

TIS No 7 : 2001

Guidelines for the Safe Transportation, Storage, Use

and Disposal of Dry Ice Products

Product Description

Solid Carbon Dioxide - CO2 (dry ice) is very cold: -78oC. It sublimes (turns from a solid) to an asphyxiant gas that is heavier than air. It is important to note that a little bit of dry ice will sublime to a large volume of gas.

Dry ice is manufactured in the form of pellets, slices or blocks and may be supplied loose or in insulated containers.

The risks associated with dry ice in a customer caller-collect situation come from:

• The product (pellets, slices, blocks)

• Types of packaging and insulation used

• The way it is secured whilst in transit

• The type of vehicle being used; and

• The length of time the journey takes

Areas having an impact on the size of the risk include product packaging and insulation. Your supplier will have listed the hazards associated with the product on the wrapper or container in which the dry ice is supplied.

The Material Safety Data Sheet given to you by your supplier will inform you of the action to be taken in the event of an incident or emergency involving dry ice and the health hazards of the product. You should read this carefully before transporting, handling or using dry ice.

TRANSPORTATION

The most significant risks incurred when transporting dry ice are:

• The creation of an unsafe atmosphere due to sublimation of the product (change of state from a solid to a gas) – the product will not “melt†into a liquid.

• Spillage from an insecure load would lead to a higher rate of sublimation as the surface area of the product type increases – pellets being worse than slices that, in turn, are worse than blocks.

• Impact damage / injury - As with any heavy load, dry ice loads MUST BE SECURED.

The following is intended as a guide to help determine if the vehicle in which the ice is being collected is suitable:

AVOID transporting dry ice in the cab of a truck or the passenger compartment of a car. If this is not possible, the load should be well insulated and adequate ventilation must be maintained.

Preferably transport dry ice in vehicles where the driver’s cab is isolated from the load compartment.

TIS No 7 – BCGA © 2001

ALWAYS secure the load compartment doors in the open position before entering. For large “walk-in†load compartments, the doors should be capable of being opened from the inside.

ALWAYS ensure that there is adequate ventilation during transportation and before entering load compartment to unload product.

ALWAYS carry a carbon dioxide (solid) Material Safety Data Sheet in the cab or driver’s compartment of any vehicle that is carrying dry ice.

REMEMBER: These are not hard and fast rules. However, drivers of vehicles carrying dry ice should be aware that the level of risk of an unsafe atmosphere occurring in the vehicle will depend on the following conditions:

• Quantity of dry ice being transported

• Type of packaging and insulation used

• The length of time the product is held in an enclosed space

• The temperature of the load compartment

• Vehicle ventilation – ALWAYS ensure that the heating / air supply is switched to draw in ‘fresh air’ from outside the vehicle.

ALWAYS unload product as soon as possible at the end of the journey and move to a suitable storage location.

STORAGE

ALWAYS store dry ice in an area which is:

• Well ventilated.

• Preferably not below ground.

• Accessible with mechanical lifting equipment (where the ice is stored in large containers).

• Out of direct sunlight and sources of heat.

• Secure – to prevent unauthorised access.

Suitable dry ice containers are available from your supplier. Generally, the principle is – the better the insulation, the slower the sublimation rate and the longer the quality of the product will be maintained.

DO NOT store or use dry ice in any gas tight container. Within large containers, gas rich atmospheres will have built up.

ALWAYS secure the container lid open before reaching in to unload the product.

AVOID leaning into the container for longer than necessary.

WORKING WITH DRY ICE

Many applications of dry ice result in the sublimation of the dry ice volume into the working area.

REMEMBER – a little bit of dry ice will sublime to a large volume of CO2 gas.

ALWAYS seek professional advice on suitable ventilation systems. Use of dry ice will generate gaseous CO2, This may require assessment under the UK COSHH Regulations.

Do not handle dry ice with bare hands. It can cause severe cold burns and frostbite.

DO NOT play with dry ice. Playing games with dry ice is dangerous.

ALWAYS keep dry ice away from children.

USE AN INSULATED CONTAINER TO STORE DRY ICE

DO NOT PLACE IN WORKING REFRIGERATOR OR FREEZER

HOW TO USE DRY ICE

FREEZING – place dry ice above items to be frozen.

DO NOT allow direct contact with items to be frozen as superficial damage / freezer burn may occur.

ALWAYS defrost completely before consumption.

COOLING – place dry ice in bottom of cooler, cover with water ice or insulating material, then place cans, food etc. on top. DO NOT allow direct contact with dry ice. DO NOT put it into drinks

SPECIAL EFFECTS – use gloves to place small amounts of dry ice in hot water for fog. Can be used with a proprietary fog machine.

OTHER USES - 􀂊 fresh meat processing and shipping 􀂊 de-flashing moulded rubber and plastic 􀂊 low temperature testing 􀂊 industrial cleaning (dry ice pellet-blasting) 􀂊 shrink-fitting 􀂊 laboratory cold-traps 􀂊 inerting and purging 􀂊 freeze-branding.

SAFE DISPOSAL

Dry ice sublimates leaving no residue. However, care should be taken when surplus ice remains when the application for which it was intended is completed.

• ALWAYS ensure that dry ice is disposed of in a safe place:

• Well-ventilated area

• Secured against access to passers-by – especially children and animals

• DO NOT dispose of dry ice in an area where CO2 gas can collect in low-lying areas – garage pits, drains, confined spaces, etc.

Any left-over packaging should be disposed of with care and recycled wherever possible.

BRITISH COMPRESSED GASES ASSOCIATION

6 St Mary’s Street, Wallingford, Oxon, OX10 0EL

Tel: 01491 825533

Fax: 01491 826689

This publication may be freely produced, except for advertising, endorsement or commercial purposes. The information it contains is current at March 2001. Please acknowledge the source as British Compressed Gases Association.

Web site: www.bcga.co.uk

webber

GOOD WEBBER BUT I THINK ITS A WASTE OF YOUR TIME .

AND ALL YOUR EFFORTS, JUST WAIT FOR THE BANG.

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I have no problem whatsoever with being incorrect, however, I do object to simply being told that I am wrong with no explanation or justification. I have done my best to justify my thinking but it seems that no one is prepared to offer up a real justification of the contrary train of thought. I accept that I might be wrong but I feel that no other argument will carry any validity unless it is similarly explained. I accept that no one else may offer such an argument.

 

I feel that the sniping about my age or level of education is completely unnecessary and does not contribute anything to the discussion. It seems only a means by which people can avoid actually giving an answer to the question.

Sniping about age or education is refering to me clearly so.......

 

I was not sniping at your age (if you notice I am only 2 yrs older although uni does make a big difference) just using it to assess your understanding of the necessary science, hence the remark about doing A Level's. I personally don't know whether it will work or not but consider one thing:

 

are the potential risks worth the reward?

 

the risk's being involved include loosing part of your atonomy or damaging your house plus also breaching the law with regards humigation etc.

The rewards, a couple of pence per refil if that.

 

I think my hand alone is worth more than a couple of pence, let alone my house and breaking the law.

 

 

The remark about my friend at oxford, was to illustrate that even some incredibly clever people with knowledge of the relevant area, who often do stupid things would not attempt this. So being that you are probably not as knowledgable/experienced as those do you not think you should have a go at this? Its not like repairing a punture in your bike where you get it wrong you need a new inner tube, get this wrong you may be after a new limb.

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It sounds like a good way of blowing your ******* spanners off.

 

 

A major part of my companies business is filling CO2 cylinders, several thousand each week.

 

In the interest of safety, could we please forget any notions of re filling the capsules described. I dont have the time to go into why not, sorry.

 

webber

 

i don't mean to be rood, but yes people did offer this advise (see above), i am just asking for some of the theory behind it.

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  • 1 month later...

hi i am new to the site but had to say something regarding co2 and the qb, the tube on the qb has been tested to 1500 pounds, some guys in the usa use them at that presure as a pcp, not many shots as they cannot hold a lot of air. please read the link i am posting, dry ice guns are not new do a search for details

 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,932120,00.html

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