ernyha Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 :unsure: I am getting totally bemused by this thread because i have read on more than one occasion on this forum that baiting a field for vermin or any other species is illegal. If this is the case than surely the question of whether it is sporting to do so or not is completely irrelevant. Perhaps one of our legal beavers can clarify this please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 True, unfortunately it does go on.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernyha Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 True, unfortunately it does go on.. :unsure: I am aware that it goes on so how can we have a debate on whether it is sporting or not? If it is illegal then those that do it should be condemmed out of hand, whether or not they are well known clay shooters or not. Thats my opinion anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Yeh here here ern I totally agree with you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Lets not forget that we shoot pigeon under an open general license on the grounds of crop protection. I dont think that its a license to exterminate the species. Absolutely spot on Webber and the day that an organisation with creedance like the RSPB or the BTO start making noises because the population of The common woodie is dwindling due to our actions then we will be in serious trouble... This might be sound somewhat pessimistic given the current trends in pigeon population, but I can remember not so long ago when House sparrows and Starlings were to be seen in their droves now both in serious decline... We do not need to give any of these people any ammunition to fire back at us.. Cranny... I can see where your coming from but lets not forget that the Pheasant is reared in its thousands and is not an indiginous species to these islands as such it is a replenishable resource... Common woody has to make his own way in the reproductive stakes.. FM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted February 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Right, so the debate really splits into two areas. 1) Is shooting large bags of pigeons, by whatever method, harmful to their ultimate survival ? I think at the present population levels, the succession of mild Winters, the ready food sources and the urbanisation of the bird, there is very little chance that the wood pigeon will become a threatened species, by over shooting. 2) Is baiting a field for pigeons sporting (or even lawful) ? I don,t think its illegal, but I don,t want to do it, so have never checked. Is it sporting ? The "open licence" we have to shoot wood pigeon, is on the grounds that they are vermin/ agricultural pests. Make too public words like "sporting", in association with them and you are one step away from a shooting season, paid licence, real commercialism etc. So any "legal" method shooters use, should be OK. Other thoughts; Do you shoot 12 months of the year ? Do you stop shooting pigeons because you have shot "enough" ? Do you shoot pigeons when they are not feeding on crops ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Cranny, Very valid points... Personally I dont shoot any bird during its breeding cycle.... During My Pigeon shooting sessions I take 50 cartridges max... which for me is enough for a days SPORT.... Though I will admit to have gone back for more on the very odd occasion. I do shoot pigeons when they are not feeding on crops...but lets be frank this would hardly make in roads in to numbers like regularly taking of 750 bird bags by baiting. I can see your point.. and if bird Numbers are sufficient to sustain the current amount of killing then fine... but we must not be complacent... To adopt the Cod and Herring Fishermans attidue of "They are there so we will take them in numbers until they are gone" can only lead in one direction... No cod or Herring ! I have said before in these colums that it is estimated 4 million plus birds are shot each year from a population of 6 to 7 million pairs.. you can do your own sums.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted February 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 I think its very difficult not to shoot pigeons during their breeding cycle, as they seem to be breeding for 9 months of the year. The mild weather conditions have caused this situation. "I have said before in these colums that it is estimated 4 million plus birds are shot each year from a population of 6 to 7 million pairs.. you can do your own sums.." I don,t have any statistics on how many birds are shot a year, or what the current population levels are, but based on those numbers we will soon be overrun with pigeons. If 6 million pairs of pigeons, have 3 broods a year, of two chicks a brood, that means there are 36 million new pigeons born in a year. We only shoot 4 million of them. Seriously, I don,t know what the numbers are and I am not arguing with the main sentiments of the points being made. We should all appreciate our hobby/sport and ensure that our behaviour does not contribute to the arguments of the Antis. :unsure: I would still like to know if baiting fields for pigeons is illegal, if anyone knows for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiercel Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 One thing is for sure no matter how much bait you put on the fields, if the pigeon are not there you cannot shoot them. If the pigeon are there in numbers that allow 750 to be shot in a day you can bet your life they are not living on "beans on toast".therefore they are causing substantial damage to crops. So what i cant understand, whats all the bleating about? If you shooters are not careful you will loose the pest status of pigeon then we will see how deep your pockets are. PS Its not very often i agree with cranners, but on this subject I think he's spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_stag88 Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Cranners, I do belive that what I read in the paper tells me we arnt doing our job properly. According to the RSPB the woodpigeon has increased in numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted February 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 red stag88, I think we are all trying as hard as we can, to rectify the situation. :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Havind said all that chaps are we agreed that baiting a field for pigeon is sporting or not? webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Well cranfield to answer your questions I don't think big bags will affect the national population but maybe the local population. I think its very unsporting to bait a field to shoot igeons in and there is very little field craft involved in it which I thought this sport was about. I don't shoot pigeons 12 months a year. I never get big enough bags to stop shooting because where I live there is not a big enough population of pigeons. And finally I always shoot pigeons when not in crops but 90% of this is done roost shooting (the other 10% being when i'm rough shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_stag88 Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Havind said all that chaps are we agreed that baiting a field for pigeon is sporting or not? webber I belive it is unsporting for pigeons, yet why is it fair game for corvids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Havind said all that chaps are we agreed that baiting a field for pigeon is sporting or not? webber I belive it is unsporting for pigeons, yet why is it fair game for corvids? Why when is it used for corvids red? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene molloy Posted March 24, 2004 Report Share Posted March 24, 2004 Hello boys, I’m new in here but I’ve been in touch with Jim Rimmer, JonnyNI, and Deako on a wildfowling forum. Regarding large bags, the biggest I was ever part of was approx 550 shot over sprouts in the winter of 62-63. The late Mick Grinnall from Stourport had been asked by a farmer for help and contacted us. I skived off my ONC Chem. course at Aston Tech, and together with my Uncle Geoff and another chap got onto the field near Hartlebury at about 09.30. Those sprouts were the only bit of greenery sticking up above the snow for miles around. The birds were in a pitiful state, some dying from cold as they sat in the surrounding trees. Within the hour we were running out of cartridges and Geoff drove to Micks shop for some more. No decoy pattern was needed, we never bothered to clean up and just shot them as they came from all angles. I’d got a white lab coat on, and they couldn’t see me standing in the open; no fieldcraft needed. I swear Geoff had five dead in the air with his Breda auto more than once. We filled up ten sack sacks with fifty birds each, and reckoned another fifty or sixty odd were in the surrounding fields buried in snow. We didn’t have a dog. Even at the time as a 17 year old I thought we’d overdone it, looking back I’m sure we did, crop protection or not. Even if I had the chance I wouldn’t do it again…some else can, but not me. About ten years ago I shot 192 over drilled peas, really fit birds whizzing along on the wind. I took every bird in range, going for the shots; no waiting for the undercarriage to come down. No bad conscience that time, the only regret was not getting the extra eight; I can’t recall how many shots I took, but it was a lot! As for prebaiting a field, yes it goes on. A mate was invited to such a day by a sporting agent who wanted to get into the record book (my mate is a terrific game shot.) He jacked well before days end not liking the set up at all…unsporting. I'm with him. Regards Eug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted March 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2004 Welcome Eugene and I,m sure you will find things interesting here. If you go to this link and scroll down the posts, you will see a post I made some time ago, about a day very similar to yours. http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/ind...pic=154&hl=kale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene molloy Posted March 24, 2004 Report Share Posted March 24, 2004 Hello Cranners, Thanks for the welcome. I guess you must be my generation (ie knackered old **** tendancy) given your view on things. I don't criticise anyone for really clobbering the birds when they can; but like you, having done it once as a kid, for me that's enough. The only defence I offer is that it was a lesson learned...at least in my own mind I've never gone over the top again: pheasants, geese, ducks whatever; I've known when to stop. Regards Eug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 Welcome to the forum Eugene.. We need more Old farts like you as you have a wealth of experience to pass on to some of the younger members.. I have great empathy with your coments in respect of shooting inordinate bags of pigeon.. If the numbers support it so be it. I recall a similar situation to yours when I was a teenager in the 70,s (My Grandfather who was a brilliant shot with any weapon) and I shot a broccolli field after a prolonged spell of Cold weather and Heavy snow... It was so cold our cat was catching live Fieldfares and bringing them into the house.. I was a novice but shot 55 in a 3 hour session, My Grandfather bagged at least twice as many.. But we could have had more. The Birds just kept coming and coming to the gun in absolute desparation.. Just before 12 Grandfather said Thats it Ive had enough and so have the birds and we cleared up and headed home.. In the afternooon we talked about the mormings shooting and he reminised about his time in the trenches in the First War.. He never often spoke about his time fighting against the Turks but he saw hand to hand combat on more than one occasion. I remember vividly, him comparing those desperate pitiful birds, throwing themselves on the guns to that of the ANZAC and English soldiers pouring over the trenches to certain death.. As a young (and by todays standards an Innocent) 17 year old, that simple analogy left a deep impression on me... I am happy with a dozen or so birds, cleverly brought to the decoys in a mornings shooting, and find the pictures of gloating guns over 250 or so dead birds in some of the periodicals rather distasteful. As for baiting of fields to provide shooting for paying clients, I have witnessed this also and it is something I find utterly disgusting.. FM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kippylawkid Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Welcome Eugene, I am with you there. I think a key word that keeps being mentioned is "Sportsman". "Crop Protection" does not cover baiting fields. I have mentioned in other topics my distaste for shooting birds and not attempting to pick them up or shooting them where they can't be picked. Crooked Goose Guides who bait fields sully the names the many honest guides who ply their trade using proper methods. If these sporting agencies start going this with pigeons we will only be shooting ourselves in the foot. Todays climate means we must not present any opportunity to the growing army of antis They will seize on any instance of unsporting behaviour and take great pleasure in twisting the knife. I class myself as a sportsman and I value the pigeon as a true sporting bird that does not deserve to be slaughtered "falsely" like this. Please let's all think of the future of our wonderful sport. :thumbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurcherboy Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Cranfield, ever thought of joining the Foreign Office or the Diplomatic Core, you would be a natural. :thumbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurcherboy Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Its a bit like carp fishing. If you ain't hauling 30's or 40's it aint worth bothering about. Fortunatly, 'those sort' normally get bored and move on to a new 'hobby' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.I. countrysports U.K. GARY Posted April 24, 2004 Report Share Posted April 24, 2004 WELL PUT DAVE... A TRUE SPORTSMAN INDEED... ALL THE VERY BEST... GARY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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