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Chris Packham/Grouse Shooting - Merged Threads


Savhmr
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I don't believe any moor should set up hh project I think they should be firstly be recognised for the successes they have on all the other endangered birds they are helping to conserve not just one that anti shooters cherry pick as an example which as previously said have never historically nested very well in the uk and certainly arnt nesting successfully any where else other than grouse moors

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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/16/grouse-shooters-kill-first-casualty-is-truth-astroturfing-botham-rspb-packham

 

Monbiot is involved now as well. With a big national printing this as truth, with no right of reply, there no easy way to respond.

Isn't it strange how different sides see the same issue ? Both sides claiming they are the ones telling the truth, whereas it is without doubt the truth will be found somewhere in the middle.

Monbiot is so riddled with class hatred and spite, and again has the perfect platform from which to spout that hatred.

Where Is Jeremy Clarkson when he's needed? 🙂

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Isn't it strange how different sides see the same issue ? Both sides claiming they are the ones telling the truth, whereas it is without doubt the truth will be found somewhere in the middle.

Monbiot is so riddled with class hatred and spite, and again has the perfect platform from which to spout that hatred.

Where Is Jeremy Clarkson when he's needed? 🙂

With Monbiot it is known he has a strong dislike of his father who is a conservative landowner. His agenda seems to be one long rejection of his father's politics.

Isn't it strange how different sides see the same issue ? Both sides claiming they are the ones telling the truth, whereas it is without doubt the truth will be found somewhere in the middle.

Monbiot is so riddled with class hatred and spite, and again has the perfect platform from which to spout that hatred.

Where Is Jeremy Clarkson when he's needed? 🙂

With Monbiot it is known he has a strong dislike of his father who is a conservative landowner. His agenda seems to be one long rejection of his father's politics.

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With Monbiot it is known he has a strong dislike of his father who is a conservative landowner. His agenda seems to be one long rejection of his father's politics.

 

With Monbiot it is known he has a strong dislike of his father who is a conservative landowner. His agenda seems to be one long rejection of his father's politics.

Ah....interesting. I wasn't aware of that.
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Isn't it strange how different sides see the same issue ? Both sides claiming they are the ones telling the truth, whereas it is without doubt the truth will be found somewhere in the middle.

Monbiot is so riddled with class hatred and spite, and again has the perfect platform from which to spout that hatred.

Where Is Jeremy Clarkson when he's needed?

Monbiat's last sentence could be describing the anti's and their deliberate campaign of misinformation against shooting.......we know who's fronting it Packham et al, but who is behind it?

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Monbiat's last sentence could be describing the anti's and their deliberate campaign of misinformation against shooting.......we know who's fronting it Packham et al, but who is behind it?

Avery, IMHO. He's tried numerous times and got nowhere. Now he's got a "celeb" at the front there is traction.

 

Edited to add: ....which I now see was a point Scolopax made earlier.

 

Came across this.......http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/grouse-and-lions/

Edited by Piebob
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The wording in this article concludes without evidence that these raptors have been illegally killed! Well they would wouldn't they! their raptor monitoring/investigations activities (hence their jobs) are based on their own claims of raptor persecution, which it appears are funded to the tune of millions of pounds by grants from the EU.........Talk about undeclared vested interest!

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The wording in this article concludes without evidence that these raptors have been illegally killed! Well they would wouldn't they! their raptor monitoring/investigations activities (hence their jobs) are based on their own claims of raptor persecution, which it appears are funded to the tune of millions of pounds by grants from the EU.........Talk about undeclared vested interest!

 

Apparently that picture is from an article back in March the story says missing and the picture of the bird doesn't have a satellite tracker the picture is from this article 22nd March http://wildlifearticles.co.uk/hen-harriers-ghost-of-moorlands-past/

 

Wonder if there is a statute of limitations or could they not prosecute him ??http://m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10736397.Chris_Packham_admits_stealing_kestrel_started_his_love_of_nature/?ref=rc

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If all the claims of illegally killed raptors on grouse moors are true, then perhaps licensing is the only way forward? At least then it would make the estate in its entirety responsible rather than an individual. But how do you police it? How do you prove that the body of an illegally killed HH for example, was actually shot or poisoned on the moor on which it was found?

How does licensing work in other countries?

Licensing may not be desirable, but if driven grouse moor shooting is to survive then what else can be done?

If someone is illegally killing raptors then it needs to be stopped.

It isn't even acceptable to ask 'where are all the prosecutions then? ' when the finger is pointed at keepers as responsible. The fact that some birds are being shot and poisoned can't be disputed apparently, but how do you prove a particular estate or particular individual was responsible? For all we know some could be poisoned by the more extreme factions of animal rights. Some of them have stooped pretty low in the past to push an agenda, and it is a documented fact that there are some quite serious criminals amongst them.

It's not going to be easy, but we certainly can't continue as we are.

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If all the claims of illegally killed raptors on grouse moors are true, then perhaps licensing is the only way forward? At least then it would make the estate in its entirety responsible rather than an individual. But how do you police it? How do you prove that the body of an illegally killed HH for example, was actually shot or poisoned on the moor on which it was found?

How does licensing work in other countries?

Licensing may not be desirable, but if driven grouse moor shooting is to survive then what else can be done?

If someone is illegally killing raptors then it needs to be stopped.

It isn't even acceptable to ask 'where are all the prosecutions then? ' when the finger is pointed at keepers as responsible. The fact that some birds are being shot and poisoned can't be disputed apparently, but how do you prove a particular estate or particular individual was responsible? For all we know some could be poisoned by the more extreme factions of animal rights. Some of them have stooped pretty low in the past to push an agenda, and it is a documented fact that there are some quite serious criminals amongst them.

It's not going to be easy, but we certainly can't continue as we are.

Very well put. Something does need to happen, licence would just add to another un policable rule..so cant see it as a solution.

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Apparently that picture is from an article back in March the story says missing and the picture of the bird doesn't have a satellite tracker the picture is from this article 22nd March http://wildlifearticles.co.uk/hen-harriers-ghost-of-moorlands-past/

 

Wonder if there is a statute of limitations or could they not prosecute him ??http://m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10736397.Chris_Packham_admits_stealing_kestrel_started_his_love_of_nature/?ref=rc

Appears he is a hypocrite too! Admits committing wildlife crime himself, but feels he is qualified to critisise others legally grouse shooting!

His first love was a bird he stole??? This nut job seems to be heading the same way as that other anti shooting extremist.....odd Billy!

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I understand the many and varied reasons raptors die, and have often discovered dead raptors in roadsides and at the foot of transformer poles, and have even unfortunately killed two owls due to traffic collisions in the past, but find the entire matter of disappearing raptors on grouse moors puzzling, and can understand why and how easy it must be to point a finger.

On one hand we have claims that the RSPB failed to rear HH on their land but grouse keepered land reared several, then on the other hand the RSPB, Packham and Avery are claiming keepers are responsible for the deaths of HH on grouse moors.

How on earth does anyone manage to prove that a disappearing bird is in fact dead, without a carcass, rather than it's transmitter has simply failed? I find it hard to believe that all dead birds simultaneously fail to transmit!

I also find it hard to believe that commercial poisons are used (legally or illegally) where there is even the slightest chance that whatever is poisoned could then be eaten by a raptor. I also find it hard to believe that anyone would risk shooting and not cleanly killing a raptor. In both instances I find it hard to believe anyone would take the risk that the creature would then fly off to die and be discovered wherever, whenever; riddled with poison or lead shot.

Yet from what I've read and claims made, raptors are still being poisoned and shot.

If I was involved in illegal raptor persecution I wouldn't take the risk unless I was sure I could destroy the evidence. Which then opens another can of worms regarding disappearing birds AND simultaneous failures to transmit. :hmm:

Driven shooting is the mainstay of all live quarry shooting, and we are hanging onto it by the skin of our teeth. If it goes the rest is easy pickings. We kill things for entertainment, and pay good money to do so, so our enemies are many and very vocal and don't need added impetus to their cause. If we cannot be squeaky clean from a legal point of view, and be shown to be so, then we've had it.

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"Driven shooting is the mainstay of all live quarry shooting, and we are hanging onto it by the skin of our teeth. If it goes the rest is easy pickings. We kill things for entertainment, and pay good money to do so, so our enemies are many and very vocal and don't need added impetus to their cause. If we cannot be squeaky clean from a legal point of view, and be shown to be so, then we've had it.

"

 

Absolutely! If the money making side of our hobby goes, it's all going!

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