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concerns over democracy


spanj
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Why stop at brexit? Any result you like just complain and get it overturned. The Olympics are coming up so it should be good.

"He only just won the 100m, let's run it again as that american chap is more poular " for example.

Or perhaps at court when there's a guilty verdict the defendant can jump up and down and say the jury didn't know the facts or it was raining when they voted or whatever and havw abother trial until found not guilay.

The while thing is utterly pathetic and totally undermines democracy. It says you can ignore the majority and implement Whateve the minority decides is "right" with a bag full of slurs for any that think differently.

Dangerous ground to be on.

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It ceases to be democracy when you don't accept the result, but keep bleating about incorrect information or additional factors. Why stop at a second referendum - surely a weekly referendum would give voters a chance to react to a fluid situation?

 

Whatever is on the table at the time of leaving is almost irrelevant - things change - except for the "I can't believe voters exercised their democratic right and didn't vote the way that I thought they should brigade".

Good post Gordon.

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They are going to attempt to JR the result and argue that in any case it needs to be endorsed by parliament. Now there's a car crash - judiciary v parliament v the will of the majority v a majority of Scotland and n Ireland v a majority of England and Wales. What a headache. No wonder May has said article 50 won't be triggered this year!

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The current polls show that the majority neither want another referendum nor a General Election. They also show that only a very small %age (2 or 3) would change their minds on how they would vote. Certainly at this stage another referendum would just be a waste of time and money.

 

Barring a major U-turn by the EU it would be impossible to have another referendum once negotiations are settled because that would mean Article 50 had already been triggered and it`s debateable whether that is reversible. Remember, even Junker has said out is out. Even if it was you can guarantee Junker and co would not allow us as good a deal as we have now. Our rebate would probably go and we`d possibly have to sign up for bailouts and further integration.

 

It`s time those politicians pushing for a second referendum shut up and applied themselves to the job at hand.

You make some good points. If there was a 2-3% swing as you say, that would possibly reverse the result. Had it gone the other way, Would those who have campaigned for so long just roll over and accept it? Would the majority of those on here who voice a strong opinion that all discussion should follow their own advice? I doubt it, even if they were in the minority because that is how real democracy works. It isn't just about slightly more than half of those who voted putting one over on slightly less than half of those who voted or you end up with a bitterly divided country.

 

I also agree that it would be impossible to lead people to believe that there could be another referendum - not because it is only democratic if the result goes your way but because if we were promised a say as to whether to stay or accept the negotiated settlement to leave, it would be in the best interests of anyone wanting to stay for those terms to be as p*** poor as possible. That is absolutely not in our country's interest. I do think that we have taken an irrevocable step to leave and it is in everyone's interests to ensure that those responsible for the negotiations do the best they can.

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You make some good points. If there was a 2-3% swing as you say, that would possibly reverse the result. Had it gone the other way, Would those who have campaigned for so long just roll over and accept it? Would the majority of those on here who voice a strong opinion that all discussion should follow their own advice? I doubt it, even if they were in the minority because that is how real democracy works. It isn't just about slightly more than half of those who voted putting one over on slightly less than half of those who voted or you end up with a bitterly divided country.

I also agree that it would be impossible to lead people to believe that there could be another referendum - not because it is only democratic if the result goes your way but because if we were promised a say as to whether to stay or accept the negotiated settlement to leave, it would be in the best interests of anyone wanting to stay for those terms to be as p*** poor as possible. That is absolutely not in our country's interest. I do think that we have taken an irrevocable step to leave and it is in everyone's interests to ensure that those responsible for the negotiations do the best they can.

Wow I don't have a clue what you are trying to say. All I know is we voted out, so out it shall be. Lets get things moving, I am not getting any younger lol

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You make some good points. If there was a 2-3% swing as you say, that would possibly reverse the result. Had it gone the other way, Would those who have campaigned for so long just roll over and accept it? Would the majority of those on here who voice a strong opinion that all discussion should follow their own advice? I doubt it, even if they were in the minority because that is how real democracy works. It isn't just about slightly more than half of those who voted putting one over on slightly less than half of those who voted or you end up with a bitterly divided country.

 

I also agree that it would be impossible to lead people to believe that there could be another referendum - not because it is only democratic if the result goes your way but because if we were promised a say as to whether to stay or accept the negotiated settlement to leave, it would be in the best interests of anyone wanting to stay for those terms to be as p*** poor as possible. That is absolutely not in our country's interest. I do think that we have taken an irrevocable step to leave and it is in everyone's interests to ensure that those responsible for the negotiations do the best they can.

 

IIRC there was a 3% change of heart on the leave side and a 2% change on remain`s side. So once you look at the net, the numbers are unlikely to change enough to alter the result. There were a few percent undecided but given the result of the previous referendum they would probably end up split too.

Edited by Danger-Mouse
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They are going to attempt to JR the result and argue that in any case it needs to be endorsed by parliament. Now there's a car crash - judiciary v parliament v the will of the majority v a majority of Scotland and n Ireland v a majority of England and Wales. What a headache. No wonder May has said article 50 won't be triggered this year!

Thanks to Dave buying votes in the Scottish referendum he's split the United Kingdom up pretty well and the UK government is, from now on, going to be taken hostage on pretty much every decision by Scotland, NI and Wales.

Nice move Dave :no:

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The referendum result was 3.9% difference, a 3% swing would in either direction would still be a win for leave.

Not as I understand it. A 3% swing would reduce one side by 3% and increase the other by 3%. Unless of course it means that 3% of those who voted for a particular outcome changed, in which case you are right. Either way it is hypothetical as it ain't going to happen!

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I don't think there is any worry over brexit happening. However I think there is a real cause for concern as to what kind of deal they are going to hoist upon us.i voted out but looking at the way things are progressing I am thinking we will end up with all the bad bits of Europe staying with us.and we will have no say in anything.

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Instead of looking for loopholes and wanting second referendums everyone should be pulling together to put the GREAT back into Britain and UNITED back into Kingdom.

Spot on! We need the team to do the very best they can and they need our support.

 

The one thing I hope governments take from this, and we have seen it with the Scottish independence vote, is that a referendum does not "settle" anything but causes bitterness and division. In future, a party should stand on a particular ticket and have the cojones to follow it through, based on their election mandate.

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My thoughts exactly.

 

Why? That means they win. Surely voting for the party that promises to deliver the one issue is more productive.

 

I voted UKIP in the local elections to fire a shot across the main parties bows like millions of others.

 

Cameron got the message, but if they renege on the promise, at the next GE I'll vote UKIP to force the issue and to hell with everything else.

 

Not voting only gives them a free ride.

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From what I was reading! There is a new European Union Law coming in next year regarding to article 50 making it impossible to enact without other member state approval. Of we don't use it ASAP they we will be stuck in the EU reguardless of the wishes of the leave vote. May needs to get her bloody finger out!

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From what I was reading! There is a new European Union Law coming in next year regarding to article 50 making it impossible to enact without other member state approval. Of we don't use it ASAP they we will be stuck in the EU reguardless of the wishes of the leave vote. May needs to get her bloody finger out!

I can't see that being right, plus what's the EU going to do about it if a county pulled out anyway, go to war over it, I don't think so
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From what I was reading! There is a new European Union Law coming in next year regarding to article 50 making it impossible to enact without other member state approval. Of we don't use it ASAP they we will be stuck in the EU reguardless of the wishes of the leave vote. May needs to get her bloody finger out!

 

Don't think so.

Can't change the articles by legislation, has to be voted on by member states.

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If the democratically elected government refuse/fail to implement the democratic will of the country, that country is no longer a democracy! In these circumstance the potential for civil unrest and disobedience and a resultant breakdown of law and order from those disenfranchised would be huge........how would the government combat this? By force? That would be further proof that we would be living in a dictatorship......not a democracy!

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Yer sorry Lord Geordie, can't even see the corrupt EU implementing that. If someone truly wanted to leave they couldn't force them to stay, regardless of what the legislation said!

 

 

If the democratically elected government refuse/fail to implement the democratic will of the country, that country is no longer a democracy! In these circumstance the potential for civil unrest and disobedience and a resultant breakdown of law and order from those disenfranchised would be huge........how would the government combat this? By force? That would be further proof that we would be living in a dictatorship......not a democracy!

 

 

 

Don't think so.

Can't change the articles by legislation, has to be voted on by member states.

 

How confident are you all on that? https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/fact-if-the-uk-doesnt-have-a-signed-deal-by-april-2017-brexit-is-in-grave-danger/

Edited by achosenman
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