Canned hunting

[Scully]

An article on BBC Breakfast this morning regarding canned hunting, for in particular, lions.

Naga voiced the opinion that in this country we find it hard to understand as we don't have a hunting/shooting culture, which is fair enough, but a Prof.Adam Hart was interviewed and said the issue is extremely complicated and went on to explain why in a very refreshingly impartial and informative manner. Good to see.

Made a big difference from the usual rabid responses.

While we don't mind interfering in the economic or cultural affairs of Africa, I haven't seen any outraged celebrities given a platform by the BBC to voice their opinions on the Chinese and their apparent habit of boiling or skinning dogs alive prior to eating them, as highlighted in one of the national newspapers yesterday. I wonder why?

[panoma1]

Anti's are often frustrated, sometime inadequate, misanthropes with mental problems which manifests itself in an obsessive compulsion to effect control over other human beings! Consequently their main objective is to control others, animal welfare is just the vehicle they use to try to achieve this control.

The anti's and their usually self appointed celebrity mouthpieces do not shout much about mistreatment of anImals in for example, the Far East and Africa firstly because most of them don't really care about the animals anyway........but more importantly, they have no influence or voice in those countries with which to control human conduct!

 

Ask yourself, how does shooting animals affect anti's as individuals? What gives individual or groups of anti's the right to dictate the lawful conduct of everyone else? As long as a sportsman/hunter does not deliberately cause undue suffering whilst persuing legal quarry, it is perfectly acceptable morally to enjoy the act of shooting/hunting.........contrary to their accusations I do not know any shooter who enjoys the act of killing a living creature! It is a moral choice made by an individual, based on the circumstances......what right have the anti's got to be anyone else's moral conscience?

[CharlieT]

Perhaps our distaste of "canned hunting" and indeed hunting larger game stems from our love, as children, of fluffy furry animals and cuddling them in our cots. It really comes down to culture, after all we have our own version of canned hunting in this country, ie driven pheasant shooting!

[Scully]

Yes indeed CT; would have to agree with much of what you and P1 have said.

Couple this with the antis hatred of those they perceive as the wealthy landowning and or ruling classes and their beliefs of social injustice ( perceived or real ) and you arrive at where we are now.

I have no doubt there are those who strongly believe the taking of a life is wrong under any circumstances, and I have no objection to this, but I also believe they are living in a world which has allowed them, by its comparative niceties, to sustain this belief and is far removed from the harsh realities of living in the real world.

Saying all that, I resent others trying to determine how I should live my life.

[del.gue]

On a related topic I listened to a podcast last night from the Pace brothers (into the wilderness vids). They interviewed a guy called Ivan Carter who has spent his life in conservation and hunting in Africa. He explained in detail the relationship between hunting money and the conservation projects...something that most of the ill informed public dont realise and something that hunting fails push as an issue.

This man is very insightful and well worth a listen.

The podcast can be found on their website

[Scully]

On a related topic I listened to a podcast last night from the Pace brothers (into the wilderness vids). They interviewed a guy called Ivan Carter who has spent his life in conservation and hunting in Africa. He explained in detail the relationship between hunting money and the conservation projects...something that most of the ill informed public dont realise and something that hunting fails push as an issue.

This man is very insightful and well worth a listen.

The podcast can be found on their website

Yes, and the Prof was quick to highlight this as well as other matters, including the one where those who are quick to condemn often overlook ( through an agenda or just simply being unaware ) the fact there is always a human side to consider, and where the livelihood of those involved would come from if not for hunting.

[del.gue]

Yes, and the Prof was quick to highlight this as well as other matters, including the one where those who are quick to condemn often overlook ( through an agenda or just simply being unaware ) the fact there is always a human side to consider, and where the livelihood of those involved would come from if not for hunting.

That is something that was also discussed on the podcast. They have to earn a living and without the money coming in they turn to.poaching and bushmeat.

Edited September 9, 2016 by del.gue

[scotslad]

Sort of playing devilsadvocate here, not so much on the canned hunting as if hat floats folk boats fair enough and the money i brings in is massive, plus if animals are reared in captivity it means not really harming anyone or any wild populations. To be honest the animals probably have a better life than many farm animals and don't have to face the stressful jouney to the slaughter house that most will

 

But are we sometimes just as bad as the anti's?

Scully uses the very emotional imagine of boiling and skinning dogs alive. I have no idea if that actually happens over there, althou would doubt the skinning part does.

I'm all for humane treatement of all animals but is it really any different to us boilng lobsters, crayfish alive?

Or do u think there is folk in india up in arms about the rest of the the world using there sacred animal as beef burgers?

Must admit i would not fancy eating dog meat, but i'm in no position to try to tell someone else how to lead there life and not to eat it.

As long as the animal is treated well and killed humanely, both of which could be dubious in some parts of world

 

I've got more of a problem with the 'far easts' habit of poaching/butchering many rare and exotic animals for ivory and potions as they don't care wot affect it has on the animals populations even if it means they become extinct

[bruno22rf]

You have no idea if it actually happens scotslad? - where have you been? there are plenty of clips available where you can watch it being done.

[Scully]

I've seen documented evidence in the way of film footage regarding the skinning of live dogs in China, but was unaware some were also boiled alive until seeing the newspaper article the other day.

I even recently saw footage of a young lad in Asia who picked up a live frog and killed it by clamping down on its upper jaw with his teeth and literally tearing it apart.

 

I'm not exactly in any position to object regarding the killing of creatures, really, and I'm totally indifferent to the eating of dogs, cats or whatever, so long as they aren't mistreated and their demise is brought about with the least amount of suffering as possible.

[Muddy Funker]

With regards to the far east, I was of the understanding in their culture they believe if the animal has suffered before it's killed the meat tastes better.

 

You've only got to spend a short time searching on youtube to see clips that would make your toes curl. I'm indifferent to it to be honest because it's their culture, nothing will change it and it isn't my cat or dog.

I feel the same about canned hunting. It's not for me but it's non of my business or concern.

[Walker570]

I have witnessed the 'canned' 'guaranteed' hunts in Texas and they are nothing but shooting tame animals, some will still have the tag or tag hole from the auction the previous weekend and take place in very small acreages. My view they should be called 'canned killings' because they have no relationship to hunting in any way. Disgusting.

 

It should be of concern to all true hunters because the paint(NOTE I USE THE WORD PAINT) sticks to all of us. The tree huggers believe we are all the same. Witnessed it in New Zealand where I saw about fourty big bulltahr in a 600 acre pen at low level. Firstly these big bulls do not live in packs, they live with their own herd and tolerate a few younger bulls, secondly they live on the high tops where you need an experienced mountain guide to get you near enough to shoot one. I did it in 1991 and got my bull after 13hrs on the mountain and could not walk for two days afterwards. The American who was staying at the ranch house congratulated me and said that no way could he do it. It shot a tahr in the 600 acre plot next day and they flew him up onto the topmost ridge in the snow line for a photograph.

Make what you will of it, but it does concern all of us true hunters.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Walker570

[Benthejockey]

Muddy funker pretty much hit the nail on the head with his last sentence.

Unfortunately we now live in a world where people feel they have a right to be morally outraged by everything. And have an opinion on everything. And not just about emotive subjects like canned hunting but on everything!

For example the white middle class hippy wannabes that stormed the airport runway at the beginning of the week because black lives matter. So everybody else's lives don't matter? Another example is on Monday I had to do a 300 mile round trip to fetch a horse I'd given to someone on the express grounds that if they broke him or don't want him anymore he was to take a one way trip to the kennels. She wouldn't do it and was outraged that I would even contemplate having a horse shot rather than euthanised by a vet. This was a middle class, educated woman who works with race horses in a professional capacity telling me that I obviously had no respect for the horse because I was going to shoot him and feed him to the hounds. She was outraged to the point she refused to see me and sent another staff member to see me. They are no longer allowed to shoot horses at the races because of public perception and anything bar broken legs gets taken off the course to be destroyed or doped up to be taken home so that it doesn't count as a statistic against the race course as some jumped up animal rights campaigner will broadcast how cruel the racing fraternity is. I don't care what public perception is if my horse breaks a leg I want it dead there and then not stood around for 10 minutes whilst the drugs take effect.

Canned hunting in the same vein is slagged off and poo pooed, if you want to pay a big pile of money to shoot a captive lion then fill your boots, the thing could still bloody eat you! Would I want to pay $30000 to shoot a tame lion - probably not. Would I shoot a lion? Probably yep if the opportunity arose. I'd probably shoot any legal game if the opportunity arose not for trophies or bragging right but for similar reasons we go fox shooting or deer stalking. Does it bother me if some rich Americans want to pay mega bucks to shoot old/captive/farmed/canned animals? Not one jot. I don't benefit from it and it does me no harm.

If the outraged were more concerned with their own lives than with what everyone else is doing they'd be much happier! But then that would defeat the object of their outrage I suppose!

[panoma1]

The whole point is no one should try to impose their moral choices on others, as long as hunting/shooting/killing animals is acceptable in law In this country and as long as it's done in such a way as to eliminate as much as possible, pain and suffering, then anything that results in the death of a living creature is a moral decision to be made by the individual.

Other countries have different cultural reasons and legal rules/standards allowing the killing of living creatures and whilst we may not agree with these standards and rules we know little about their cultural, environmental, economic or other reasons, so we in this country should perhaps refrain from comment! we certainly have no right to impose our opinions or moral standards on the peoples of other countries.

The problems arise particularly in this country when ignorant people, an anthropomorphic public and/or those with an agenda who in persuance of that agenda, give animals human feelings, as far as I'm aware there is no scientific evidence that proves any animals have human feelings....warm blooded creatures undoutedly feel fear and pain, but do they feel fear and pain in the same way and to the same degree as humans? I doubt it! However without this knowledge (and even with it!) it is encumbent on responsible hunters/shooters to dispatch an animal quickly and cleanly. Alternatively do cold blooded animals feel pain in the same way as hot blooded creatures....I believe not! But on the supposition that they probably feel, not pain as we know it, but stress, it is also right that they too should be dispatched without delay.

I enjoy shooting/hunting/fishing it is my choice, I kill animals, birds, fish and I do so in compliance with my own high moral standards.

 

I firmly believe that no individual, group or organisation (apart from the criminal law) has the right to overrule my moral choice and/or impose their views on me!

[scotslad]

You have no idea if it actually happens scotslad? - where have you been? there are plenty of clips available where you can watch it being done.

 

To be honest i have no interest in trawling the interenet looking for clips of animals being tortured.

I'm pretty sure some animals will be treated horrendously over there but human rights are hardly very high so assume animals rights even lower.

 

But don't believe every thiing u see on internet. Plenty of clips of anti hunting/farming stuff from the UK which is nonesense

 

I usually think they'll will be some reason logic behind someone doing something. Can't see any reason why u'd want to skin any animal while its alive, esp 1 that could bite u. I have enough bother taling ticks of my young lab, he's a squirmer, never mind trying to skin him alive.

 

I totally agree with Ben the jockey and muddy flanker, even if i do not agree with it, not really my place to critise and it won't do any good so no point getting upset about it.

 

 

Mibee teas or NZ aren't the best examples of canned hunting if u can have a good example, but in africa are u not better rearing an animal designed for the envoronment rather than an introduced crop, cow or sheep that often struggles with the harsh environment?

In reality its no different than a farmer farming stock, u could even argue the fact it is shot on site without the sress of transportation to slaughter house is a positive thing.

But it is not hunting in my book or most folks books but that does not make it wrong

 

There is also a modern africain industry of farming antelope to sell to national parks and popular safari areas to keep their unnarurally high numbers of predators there, as it the predators folk want to take pictures off.

[Scully]

The film footage I saw of a dog being skinned alive was shown on mainstream tv quite a few years ago now as part of a documentary. I seem to think it may have been by John Pilger, but it was a long time ago.

The dog was held captive by having its head within a cage while the remainder of its body was outside the cage, so it was impossible to for the dog to bite anyone behind it. An incision was made around the animals neck and the skin worked off from there. The process of skinning alive is, it is claimed, tenderises the meat.

The dog was shown in this cage and at the moment the first incision was made the camera panned away to concentrate on the person doing the skinning, but the noise made by the dog was horrific.

[Scully]

While I was typing the above this morning, Janice Long popped up on BBC Breakfast ( reading the tabloids ) to comment on David Attenborough stating that it made him sad to see animals hunted in this way, referring to a 14 year old American girl who had posed with a giraffe she had shot recently.

Again, fair enough, but then Janice Long displayed her ignorance of subject knowledge by saying that if these animals were hunted like this it wouldn't be long before they were extinct and subsequent generations wouldn't be able to see them.

Once again, the wrong impression is fed to an unknowledgeable wider general public on a national scale by an international broadcasting company.

[scotslad]

Now i'm not sticking up for canned hunting and not something i'd ever want to do, as pulling the trigger is not wot it is about for me i can enjoy/remember days out when the deer have won just as swell as the days i've shoot something.

 

But n wot grounds do u think its wrong?

Yes it may not be hunting as i would describe it. But i'm sure the animal will be kept in only the best conditions compared to 'normal' livestock/ farm animals, i'd imagine if an animal is so valuable it will be looked after more like a prize winning pedigree bull than a normal animal.

But even prize winning pedigree bulls need slaughtered at some point, i would imagine most animals would prefer to be slaughtered on sire out in the field tather than transported in a wagon to a strange place (slaughter house).

So i'd imagine no real welfare rights in most cases or else the trophy skin would not be up to standard.

 

So that only leaves the argument its not 'hard' enough or too easy?

If that's the case ur walking a dangerous road, many on here will shoot pheasants whether on larger more formal driven days, diy syndicates or armed rambles/ farm shoots.

There is a very big difference from a lowly farm shoot where u may walk miles and never see a pheasant to a big driven day where ur dropped of almost on the peg and ferried everywhere and can shoot as many as ur wallet will allow.

Some could say that's to easy too.

 

Like i said not sticking up for canned hunting, and to be honest didn't really agree with it, but thinking deeper about it, if someone wants to pretend thats hunting who am i to object.

As long as animals are well looked after and reared rather than wild caught, ideally some % of the money would go back into conservation of the wild species u've shot.

 

If u look a bit deeper into things it is a tightrope wether u should agree with something outside wot ur own morals/ethics rhink is right, after allm most will shoot things for fun (but i'm sure most can justify it to ourselfs) but when u strat to critise there sports because u don't agree with them we're just as bad as the anti's.

Really for me as long as animals have no welfare issues and are treated with respect (could be argued either way) and shot humanely its hard to say much without becoming a hypocrite

[Scully]

Not sure if the above is aimed at me but if so I think we may be at cross purposes here.

I don't think canned hunting is wrong at all. Big game hunting isn't my thing but I'm not against it and certainly don't think it's wrong, canned or otherwise.

The 'wrong' I was referring to is the 'wrong' impression Janice Long gave by her comment that if we allowed the continued hunting of animals such as Giraffe, they will become extinct; they won't.

[scotslad]

To be fair giraffe is the worst example u could of used, they are beginning to think that numbers are crashing across africa and they don't know why yet potentially some disease. But the decline is nothing to do with hunting

 

But ur right that properely regulated big game hunting will not affect to populations in fact if anything it should make populations healthier and larger as they now have a revinue from them for the locals.

Even some pretty rare heavily poached species would actually benefit from very controlled hunting if it helped to price the poachers out of the market and give the locals an income so they didn't need to poach and pay for conservation measures as well as tracking and anti poacher patrols

 

Most of the large game reserves and national parks were set up by famous victorian big game hunters

 

But canned hunting is really no different than someone shooting a farmers cow/sheep in a field, not hunting in any way shape or form but equally doing no damage to environment, so if someoe really wants to do it thats up to them

[Scully]

The example wasn't of my choosing I'm afraid, but came from the newspaper article Mr Attenborough and Janice Long were referring to of a teenaged American girl shooting a giraffe, but it applies equally to most African big game farmed for hunting.

It really is a truly complex issue and one which Janice Long and Mr Attenborough would have done well to gen up on before commenting. Perhaps they already are genned up but chose to push their personal views as it is obvious they disapprove. Who knows?

[Walker570]

OK, when we think of 'canned hunting' what are you thinking about. Now I have seen some pretty disgusting set ups in Texas, where animals are kept in very small high fenced areas and some have actually been bought in at auction for a client to shoot the next day/week. The one area I drove by was so devoid of vegetation you could have seen a spider run across it and as soon as the animals in there heard the truck they turned and walked towards the sound. Not much better than culling in a park here, which is essential and not considered hunting, although shooting these park deer has taken place and probably still does for large sums of money.

The majority of the so called 'hunters' on videos are in such a hurry to get the tape out and see if what they have just slaughtered is going to top 'the Book'. There is a series of videos "Sportsmen on Film", watching one or two might change your perception.

Finally, I was taken to see a cougar penned in a cage about 20ft by 10ft it was there awaiting some Big Hunter to come along and they would let it out of the cage ...maybe!!

[Scully]

In my opinion canned hunting is any creature reared specifically for the purpose of shooting, either for revenue, sport or trophy, or all three.

[CharlieT]

In my opinion canned hunting is any creature reared specifically for the purpose of shooting, either for revenue, sport or trophy, or all three.

Yes, sums it up nicely.

[jayDT10]

In my opinion canned hunting is any creature reared specifically for the purpose of shooting, either for revenue, sport or trophy, or all three.

I've never heard of pheasant shooting being referred to as canned shooting , but I do see your point. Thing is with pheasant shooting you can pick your shots and try to be as sporting as possible even though they are there to be killed . With big game this is not the case .