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How old to take a dog to watch a shoot


OJW
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Hi,

 

I know you shouldn't try to work a young dog (9months) but can I take my cocker on shoots to stay on the lead and watch from a distance? Or would that do more harm than good? I've heard of other people bringing a pup up alongside another working dog and they learn quicker from watching.

 

Thanks

 

OJW

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Hiya ojw! I'll be interested to hear the resonses,I'm having to take our 6mth border terrier beating next week due to dog sitting issues,I've cleared it with the gamekeeper and have to keep him on the lead to trot round with me. The only negative I can think of is they will see other dogs running free and want to join them.

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I have always tried to buy my dogs in February, so giving me a good nine months before the season starts. The work you have done in that nine months will tell you the answer. Does the dog respond well to the whistle, come back to heal, sit etc., and by well I mean when other dogs are about and there are other things going on. IF your dog meets those parameters then I can see no problem in having a 9month old dog with you, under tight control for a couple of outings, then gradually introduce them to some work but in short spells and as soon as the dog shows signs of ignoring you, get it back on the lead till next time and when home return to the training.

At some stage the dog has to be trusted and I see so many dogs in the field that are like they are on a bit of string, not allowed to make up their own minds. Thirty years ago I had a chocy lab, the best dog by far I have ever owned. That dog was so trustworthy, he was working in the line at 6mths like a veteran BUT only because a) he was a good dog anyway b) because I had spent 15 to 20 minutes EVERY day with him teaching him his manners and as a reward would take him pigeon decoying. One day I shot at a cock pheasant and didn't think I had hit it, but my lab watched it until it went out of sight into a fir wood 300yrds behind us and over a stone wall. I clicked him on and he vanished over the wall. We moved to the next drive and I was in the beating line for that one but he had not returned. Someone said, "Your dogs not back", I replied that he hadn't found it yet. We had almost finished that drive when one of the standing guns below me shouted that my lab had just jumped the wall with a cock pheasant. He brought it to me and it had a broken wing, strong runner.

I trusted that dog as I have trusted all my dogs, but he had this innate ability to sense when a bird was hit. If you can't trust your dog, then you haven't spent enough quality time with it.

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Thanks for the replies.

 

The dog is not fully trained and I have no doubt if he was off the lead he would run riot. He is going to be on the lead though so the trust issue isn't the problem. I want him to watch the other dogs and get used to the bangs, maybe it will help him when I start upping his training. At the moment he will sit / stay and retrieve a ball to hand.

 

Will exposing him too early to a shoot be counter productive? Or will it be good for him to see it all and watch the other dogs? I am not contemplating taking him off the lead or beating with him at any point. He would just be watching on a lead.

 

Thanks

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I wouldnt bother myself until he's ready. At least then he could walk at heel there without you and he getting frustrated with lifting over fences, lead getting caught up in dense undergrowth etc etc.

For comparison (and I know a few other dog people on here do the same) I don't even start training my dogs until they're 12 months old and they won't see game dependant upon age and time of year until the basics are in. And even then I would expect them to make a boob every now and then as training on dummies is very different to training on game.

Personally I would leave the puppy at home, frustration can easily induce noise and pup needs to learn to inhibit itself in easier situations before its brain is blown with having a large (or even small) amount of game getting up in its line of sight. Also don't assume all the dogs on the shoot are exhibiting the right behaviour!

That's not to say I am wrong or I'm right, it's just what I would do.

Edited by bigbird
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Thanks for the replies.

 

The dog is not fully trained and I have no doubt if he was off the lead he would run riot. He is going to be on the lead though so the trust issue isn't the problem. I want him to watch the other dogs and get used to the bangs, maybe it will help him when I start upping his training. At the moment he will sit / stay and retrieve a ball to hand.

 

Will exposing him too early to a shoot be counter productive? Or will it be good for him to see it all and watch the other dogs? I am not contemplating taking him off the lead or beating with him at any point. He would just be watching on a lead.

 

Thanks

Hi

Best thing here is to leave your dog at home he dosent sound ready ......sorry

 

Look at the other side

Bangs frightening him ? What do you do ? It's not a controlled environment!!

Trip over and let him go or he slips his lead in the exiting drive then runs riot

Will he stop on the whistle?

Will you be mortified if it goes wrong and you have to go home

 

Sorry to tell you what you don't really want to hear however by posting the question deep down you know pup isn't ready

 

Hope it goes well which ever way you choose to go

 

All the best

Of

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Hi

Best thing here is to leave your dog at home he dosent sound ready ......sorry

 

Look at the other side

Bangs frightening him ? What do you do ? It's not a controlled environment!!

Trip over and let him go or he slips his lead in the exiting drive then runs riot

Will he stop on the whistle?

Will you be mortified if it goes wrong and you have to go home

 

Sorry to tell you what you don't really want to hear however by posting the question deep down you know pup isn't ready

 

Hope it goes well which ever way you choose to go

 

All the best

Of

 

Yeah this is true, thanks for the candid advice. He is good at home and when out in less exciting environments but he probably would find it a bit much. I would go there dog handling rather than shooting myself if I had taken him but even then there is a risk he could slip the lead or something.

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Hi,

 

I know you shouldn't try to work a young dog (9months) but can I take my cocker on shoots to stay on the lead and watch from a distance? Or would that do more harm than good? I've heard of other people bringing a pup up alongside another working dog and they learn quicker from watching.

 

Thanks

 

OJW

I Think you have answered your own Question.OJW..

I am a big believer in using your local clay shoot.

Play the training by ear you might say,,Sit in the car park at distance and watch the reaction of the dog,Usualy the ears P**** up and shows a great deal of interest at what the sound is.??.

When getting closer over time,even on the same day,,if the ears go down or turns away,,you have gone too close to the sound of gunfire..

Slow and steady is the way to go,,Taking them too close to loud noises (COULD) make the dog gun shy..

So not worth the risk of rushing it..

Heel,Sit,Stay, Must be instilled into the dog,,Stop MEANS STOP.

Commands are what make or Break your dog...

NEVER,,Let them run in..If you do have a dog that has been there,it is a great advantage to the younger dog,,Good manners are Welcome every where..

Bad manners are not tolerated even on your own syndicate shoot.They will Grumble..

Go and watch pickers up,, These dogs are usualy bomb proof,and pleasure to watch them work..

The guns sometimes take their own dogs,and wish to retrieve a few of their own shoot labours..

Picking their birds before they have had a chance,,will give you a very black mark..

(Hope I haven't strayed too far off the mark)..

But give some thought to the start of their career as a gundog..

Best of Luck anyway.

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As said and repeated in above comments, IF the dog is responding to training adequately no problem. If not, then I agree that it best not to introduce him to such excitement. The question of when to start training has always been a thorny question . What do we mean by training. My puppies have always started 'training' the day they arrive in their new home, because much of the 'training' is behaviour .... not much different to training kids for that matter. Most well bred dogs will teach you to hunt and the important thing is for them to be able to do it at your command, so any new puppy arriving in my home has to learn that what I say I mean.

Just leaving a dog for 12 months with no training in my view is a bit crazy and then you have to break the dog and how many spaniels do we see being hauled in the air by the ears and shook because they have not learned earlier to do the handlers bidding. Would you leave your child to reach 7yrs old before starting to teach it manners?

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Lol ' break' the dogs? Why on earth would you have to 'break' them? What does that even mean?!? At that age mine soak it up with gusto - anyone who has trained with me on here will tell you I'm never heavy handed with my dogs! However I must make the point that mine aren't pet / Gundogs and live outside - if they were it'd be a different scenario.

Well ok I admit they come in for cuddles but .... Lol

Edited by bigbird
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Good to hear bigbird, but it does happen. I had to ask a gun to not return in my syndicate on one occasion because he insisted in swinging his spaniels around by the ears and throwing them to the ground, if they didn't do as he wanted and in front of the owner of the estate and his five year old son. His son asked his father why that man was being cruel to the dog! He insisted that a pro gun trainer/writer on the subject had suggested that was the way to teach the dog to behave and I didn't know what I was talking about and the land owner should mind his own business ... I'm sure you have met the type.

 

If putting an electric collar on a dog isn't breaking it of a bad habit, then what is ? Having said that they do have their uses but normally after the owner has failed in the first place.

Edited by Walker570
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OJW, I would give this season a miss if I were you. Your dog needs to be a puppy and have some fun before being taken into the shooting field.

 

Another thing, in it's early days of being out shooting whenever that is don't take it pigeon shooting. Being in the close confinement of a hide may frighten it with bangs and very little vision from the hide for the dog.

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Hi,

 

I know you shouldn't try to work a young dog (9months) but can I take my cocker on shoots to stay on the lead and watch from a distance? Or would that do more harm than good? I've heard of other people bringing a pup up alongside another working dog and they learn quicker from watching.

 

Thanks

 

OJW

Very much depends on its background IMO...all of the Cockers we have had in the family over the last 50 years ( My grandfather before me ) have started first year dogs off in the beating chain, sometimes on a long lead sometimes not. If your Cocker is from a good working strain its most unlikely to be gun shy and will have some genetic sense of what to expect... My last two dogs went straight into the hide at 9 - 10 Months and didn't bat an eyelid, in fact I think they quite enjoyed it but as JDog said be careful.

 

I personally think at a distance it will do no harm at all. You will be able to gauge immediately form the dogs reaction if he's a keen un or not.

 

I bought a Springer from a working strain of a member of this forum some years ago ...it knew what was expected of it at 12 weeks when I picked it up.. it was out shooting with me in the hide at 6 months and wasn't phased at all...getting it to wake up and start retrieve was something else though :lol:Turned out to be the best Gundog I've ever come across let alone owned.

 

I think only you will know if the dog is ready for its first encounters with the gun but don't forget those big floppy ears have been bred to keep sound out as well as seeds and debris.

 

Most shooters and beaters will be happy to see a young dog being brought along if they are not then they are not proper countrymen imo :no:

OJW, I would give this season a miss if I were you. Your dog needs to be a puppy and have some fun before being taken into the shooting field.

 

Another thing, in it's early days of being out shooting whenever that is don't take it pigeon shooting. Being in the close confinement of a hide may frighten it with bangs and very little vision from the hide for the dog.

:lol: Working Cockers are puppies until their last breath JDog :yes:

Edited by Adge Cutler
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There is a vast difference depending on if ur there for the day either beating or as a guest or can please urself and just go for a drive or go as close/far as u want too.

 

If the later and u can take it away at any time if its too much for him it's not really going to do much harm.

But i'd also say it's not going to do an awful lot of good either.

Plus usually dogs only pick up the bad habits no matter how good the dogs he is surrounded by, ive worked dogs beside plenty ftch's and they still only pick up the bad habits

 

Possibly if u could go into an adjoining field and do some training stops/recall throw some dummies while shoot is going on but dog can't get up to too much mischief/spoil shoot but again thats fairly advanced if it it can do that its almost good enough to take beating anyway.

Same with the whole clay pigeon thing, never really seen the point in just taking a dog there to sit down. Plenty other ways to introduce gunshot that are more fun for the dog.

But just have confidence in ur and ur dogs training ability if u havr trained it right

 

Seen plenty of dogs over the years on beating lines from 6months old onwards, most are usually **** and end up ruined thou, most dogs wil be ruined by too much too soon.

But it all depends on the dog and wot u expect out of it

Generally the better dogs have been held back and fully trained

 

Probably more important how u treat ur trained dog when u start beating, really esy to ruin a well trained dog.

Small things like making it wait at end of drive when lead comes off, 1 shoot i go too almost all the dogs beat on leads and their all plling like trains by time u get to the flushing point, then when keeper says 'unleash the hounds' its like slipping a pack of lurchers. Simply by making ur dog sit for a short time would stop it pulling like that

Another thng is don't be feart to stick ur dog on a lead between drives, mine can be a pita between drives as they know i'm too busy blethering and not concentrating on them, yet in a drive will all walk to heel perfectly off lead even with thousands of birds in front of them. But thats my own fault

 

Even listening to the keepers is sometimes the worst thing u can do, if u know the drives/shoot u will generally know where is safe to work a dog and when it should be at heel, seen plenty of keepers that tell u to let it hunt when ur very close to flushing point or want dos running wild throu wood whole drive on smaller shoots and letting it have a mad 2-5mins at end of drive doesn't help. Sometimes u've got to do ur own thing for te benefit of the dog

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Actually they are 'Pocket Rockets' .... love'em to bits :good::yes:

Me too..close between the Springer and the Cocker but the wee dog just shades it.

 

Amazes me how they can keep up the tempo all day, sometimes you have to slaken off their work just for their own good.

Edited by Adge Cutler
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OJW there is a very good series of books in 3 or 4 sections something like "a Sporting Cocker Master Class" or similar..

 

I had books 1 - 3 but sold them a few years back . These were invaluable as the cocker is treated slightly differently to other Spaniels.

 

I cant for the life of me remember the publisher or who the author was but they were extremely informative. My late Grandfather used to train and bring on Cockers Springers and Clumbers when he was alive and each had different requirements and procedures. He was particularly fond of the Blue Roan strain of dog.

 

I only wish I had listened more to him when I had the opportunity. !

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Should you take a 9 month old cocker on a shoot day.... with the utmost respect, if you have to ask the question the answer is no.

 

 

To watch from a distance on a lead. Not work. Not quite as much of an obvious question as "Should I take him on a shoot" with an inference to working him.

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