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Cartridge Doubts


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Right, now before you all start saying "boring . . . . been here before . . . . look it up in the threads" . . . . etc, etc

 

Just something on my mind at the moment.

 

For some years now I have been using 32g 6's for my pigeon shooting. I have generally good kills but, I guess like most, still get some wounded and runners. Nevertheless I have not doubted my choice of cartridge until just recently when I hear and read more and more about people using 5's.

 

Just a quick discussion point for anybody who can be bothered to answer : - is there a new line of thinking that 5's are better than 6's for woodies, or is it just a co-incidence, or is it a current fad (possibly based on youtube clips from people like GD et al)?

 

From the pattern plate I find that both cartridges reach the correct requirements (i.e. number of strikes) as recommended by BASC, although I also see that a lot of cartridge manufacturers who make a specialist pigeon cartridge offer them mostly in 6's, and in some cases ONLY 6's!

 

Trouble with all this stuff is that it can start to make you doubt your choices. I still believe that the 32g 6 is the best all round pigeon cartridge, but would like to hear some other opinions.

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For my money, the best all round choice is 6&1/2s. There most certainly is also a case for 7s when decoying. I will use both depending on the location of the hide and how far out I'm obliged to put the decoys. Similarly, 6s are good for roost shooting. Possibly even 5s if things are very tall. However, assuming a run of the mill gun and the normal range of chokes, at what range do you lose the pattern capability of the larger sizes while the energy remains in excess of that required - unless you use a shot load weight designed for the foreshore?

 

The next problem is what specific BASC criterion are you referring to? They mention two in the pattern test article and each contradicts the other. There is another way of doing this using the vital area of a pigeon, but the result is the same so let's go with the known vulnerable area which is 16 sq ins. If you take an 1&1/8 oz of 6&1/2s, for example and consider 1/2 choke, then 33.5% of the pellets (all things shotgun are always 'on average') will land in the inner 20" circle of the pattern. Simple maths will highlight that contradiction.

 

EDIT: Oops, my mistake. I should have said 1/2 choke at 40 yards although the same thing applies to any choke at any distance which also produces the 60% pattern.

Edited by wymberley
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I've had a new gun and started shooting with the clear pigeon 6s that i had but got a lot of runners so i had to change the choke from 1/4 to 1/2, i've never really had to use half choke before for decoying so i too am looking to what i should buy next as i read on here that the clear pigeon are not what they used to be? I might try 5s just to see if there is any difference with the 1/4 choke.

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Plan a day this week and will be shooting 19grms of Italian #8s ..??? 7 1/4 UK ??? They kill pheasants and partridge efficiently out to 40yrds so should do for pigeon if I do my bit.

I would have thought the set up you now have should still do the job. Not wish to doubt your ability one little bit but I ' ve been there when I was younger and less experienced and blamed the tools when I was at fault. :yes:

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I've had a new gun and started shooting with the clear pigeon 6s that i had but got a lot of runners so i had to change the choke from 1/4 to 1/2, i've never really had to use half choke before for decoying so i too am looking to what i should buy next as i read on here that the clear pigeon are not what they used to be? I might try 5s just to see if there is any difference with the 1/4 choke.

If things improved with the 1/2, then by choosing 5s to go back to 1/4 you're arguably going in the wrong direction unless of course you're trying to reach too far.

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For me judging whether a cartridge is any good or not does depend on the number of runners you get irrespective of whether you're holding the gun straight ! No one wants a lot of runners. There are other factors as well.

 

These work well for me in 12 bore

 

Eley HB Pigeon 32g 6 1/2

Express Super game 32g 7

Hull Sovereign 28g 6 1/2

 

In 20 bore

 

Eley VIP 28g 7 ( Now discontinued )

RC JK6 T3 26g 7

 

I sometimes use Gamebore Pigeon Extreme 34g 5 in certain conditions. Very good at range but too much shell for close decoying.

 

This most important thing is to use a cartridge you have total confidence in. Good luck I hope you find something better.

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Ok so for pigeon shooting, say decoying and roosts shooting what are people using? I’ve only ever used 6s really and got on well but like Guerini Guy says there are a lot of people on this site saying their using bigger shot sizes?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Hope the OP doesn’t mind me asking? :)

 

Thanks Whitebridges that's perfect.

Edited by Ian North Wales
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It requires pellets containing sufficient energy to penetrate a vital organ and enough of them to form a pattern so that 99% of what you hit is struck by multiple pellets to ensure a quick kill.

 

To take it to extremes: -

 

using 28g of no1 will have a very poor pattern, but will have enough penetration to kill a pigeon to over a 100 yards.

 

using 50g of no 10 will have over 1500 pellets but will bounce off the target beyond 30 yards.

 

The variable is where is the balance between energy and pattern occurs and this is where people differ, both due to personal experience, bias and what they believe their gun/cartridge combination to be capable of.

 

My preference is to have at least 180 pellets in a 30 inch circle for pigeon, with at least 1ftlb energy per pellet. This will give on average 5 or 6 strikes, with at least 3 on average hitting a vital area, giving a dead bird rather than an injured bird.

 

This can be met by the following: -

 

No7.5 - 35 yards 28g Cyl Choke

 

No7 - 40 yards 28g 1/4 choke

 

No6.5 45 yards 32g 3/4 choke

 

No6 50 yards 38g full choke

 

Pick your maximum range and then your pellet size to match and then your loading for pattern.

 

A lot of us use continental clay cartridges as their size 7.5 is an English 7 and with a little choke will kill cleanly to 40 yards and are reliable and inexpensive for pigeons.

 

32g No6 is a 'can do most things' cartridge so you only have to carry or buy 1 cartridge type to shoot (in the old days) geese (head shooting) to 35 yards (lack of power), duck/pheasant to 50 yards, partridge/pigeon to 40 yards, snipe to 35 yards(lack of pattern).

 

Using no5 for pigeon (unless you have a properly regulated set of barrels/chokes aka George Digweed) ends up generally with more injured birds and is really a pheasant cartridge as due to the poorer pattern, larger targets are needed to get a decent number of strikes.

 

A pigeon is not a tough bird, it doesn't take a lot to kill it, I had two yesterday with No9, both about 25 yards and both dead in the air.

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Thanks for the feed back stonepark, ill buy a few boxes of each (7s and 5s) and test it out and see what results i get. Just so i know for future reference how do you go about using a pattern plate?

 

First of all open a cartridge that you plan to test and check the pellets weight and number.

 

Using said cartridge from 40 yards, aim and fire at centre of plate ( I use a paper recording medium) - if you seach on here you will see quite a few posts

 

Draw a 30 inch circle around the densest part (which should be the centre), draw a 20 inch circle inside this.

 

Count pellets in inner, outer and add together for total.

 

Calculate total percentage as to what was in cartridge unfired and compare to choke chart for that range.

 

Each cartridge/choke combination will likely be different.

 

Go with the cartridge that works best with your gun/chokes.

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My pal has been shooting pigeons for 50 years, 20 years of that it was his main source of income (along with part-time keepering). I have only been shooting them for 41 years.....we both shoot 32gm 7,s.....they do the job.

Sounds like a great load. What brand do you use?

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I have gone from using 32gm 6 (15 years ago) to an ounce of 7.5 or 7. These will comfortably kill pigeons out to 50 yards. I have used most combinations of weight and shot size over the years. I am happy with my choice of cartridges for pigeons. On almost all of my pigeon shooting videos on Youtube, I use 7 or 7.5 shot.

I have seen videos where Mr Digweed is apparently shooting 100 yard pigeons with the 34gm 5s. I don't believe it. I would love to see the pattern board at that range!

As Stonepark has said, striking a balance between pattern and energy is important. Experimenting with loads pays dividends.

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My pal has been shooting pigeons for 50 years, 20 years of that it was his main source of income (along with part-time keepering). I have only been shooting them for 41 years.....we both shoot 32gm 7,s.....they do the job.

If you subscribe to the 0.85 ft/lb minimum requirement and as velocities have changed little over the years, back then somebody would have told you that your maximum range of 45 yards (energy) could easily be achieved with a tight TC (skeet?) choke.

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I'm not shooting a lot of anything at the moment, but I have been using the Lyalvale Pigeon Power 29g 6 shot fibre through 1/2 choke with good results. I'm no Digweed, but have tried most of the reasonably priced cartridges between 28g & 32g, and seem to get few wounded birds with this combination at sporting range. I should stress this isn't scientific, probably only used about 2000 of them, but I will be getting more of the same when the pigeon eventually show up again! Whatever you've got confidence in works best! Good Luck.

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If you subscribe to the 0.85 ft/lb minimum requirement and as velocities have changed little over the years, back then somebody would have told you that your maximum range of 45 yards (energy) could easily be achieved with a tight TC (skeet?) choke.

I don't believe that is the max range for a size 7.

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I don't believe that is the max range for a size 7.

Yep, I know you don't. As it happens neither do I - I think it's less and in broad brush strokes agree entirely with Stonepark. However, in this instance I'm not saying what I believe but what used to be considered the case. Just as in the same vein with a Grand Prix No 6 the maximum range for both the pheasant and pigeon through an Imp Cyl would have been deemed to be a minimum of 45 yards.

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I've recently been using up some old game cartridges on woodies and corvids from 2.9mm to 2.7mm .... they certainly kill with authority.

 

However, I will expect no drop off in performance when I go back to 29g 6's.

 

I believe a lot of people get confused about birds not being hit hard, when they're not in the middle of the pattern. Generally speaking ..... centre a woodie at any sort of range with 5's to 7's and it will be dead.

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