A0 Data Clarification

[neutron619]

Hello Chaps,

 

Follow-up to my question of last week about 34g 12 gauge loads and A1 or A0.

 

The short conclusion from the questions I asked is, I'll try both powders and judge on the basis of recoil.

 

For A0, I've got the following from Gualandi (http://www.gualandi.it/docs/tabpolv_2013_eng.pdf) and Clay & Game (A0 data sheet) respectively:

 

12/70 / PLASTIC / CX 2000 /1.80g-1.90g / 38g-39g / STAR

 

12/70 / PLASTIC / CX 2000 /1.61g / 36g / STAR

 

I was thinking, therefore, that it would probably be pretty safe to do:

 

12/70 / NITRO+FIBRE / CX 2000 / 1.90g / 34g / STAR

 

A 4g drop in the shot weight is quite a lot. Pressure should be a little lower than maximum. The question is then - shall I increase the powder charge to make sure the pressure is high enough for the A0 to burn properly (or decrease it)?.

 

There's no obvious pattern, but I have seen quite a lot of data which seems to combine more shot with more powder where A0 is concerned - whereas I'd have expected that increasing one and dropping the other would be the way to maintain safe pressure....

 

Any thoughts from the happy band of home loaders will be appreciated.

 

Many thanks,

 

Adam.

[propercartridges]

Hello Chaps,

 

Follow-up to my question of last week about 34g 12 gauge loads and A1 or A0.

 

The short conclusion from the questions I asked is, I'll try both powders and judge on the basis of recoil.

 

For A0, I've got the following from Gualandi (http://www.gualandi.it/docs/tabpolv_2013_eng.pdf) and Clay & Game (A0 data sheet) respectively:

 

12/70 / PLASTIC / CX 2000 /1.80g-1.90g / 38g-39g / STAR

 

12/70 / PLASTIC / CX 2000 /1.61g / 36g / STAR

 

I was thinking, therefore, that it would probably be pretty safe to do:

 

12/70 / NITRO+FIBRE / CX 2000 / 1.90g / 34g / STAR

 

A 4g drop in the shot weight is quite a lot. Pressure should be a little lower than maximum. The question is then - shall I increase the powder charge to make sure the pressure is high enough for the A0 to burn properly (or decrease it)?.

 

There's no obvious pattern, but I have seen quite a lot of data which seems to combine more shot with more powder where A0 is concerned - whereas I'd have expected that increasing one and dropping the other would be the way to maintain safe pressure....

 

Any thoughts from the happy band of home loaders will be appreciated.

 

Many thanks,

 

Adam.

adam i have the exact date up factory coz am making cheers george

adam i have the exact date up factory coz am making cheers george

i mean data

[neutron619]

adam i have the exact date up factory coz am making cheers george

i mean data

 

Hello George,

 

If you'd be willing to share it with me, one way or another, I'd appreciate it.

 

Thanks,

 

Adam.

[hakapiken]

Take A look inside GB Pigeon extreme. A0 1,95g, 34g 5 shot and z2m18 wad.... More like a "controdose".

 

J.A.

[propercartridges]

 

Hello George,

 

If you'd be willing to share it with me, one way or another, I'd appreciate it.

 

Thanks,

 

Adam.

just back so this is a1 powder vectan 1.55 h19 gualandi wad 35 gram load 2.9mm shot case length 56 67mm chedditte cx 2000 with cheddite case 387 at 2.5 meters to centre of speed screen pressure 685 bar

just back so this is a1 powder vectan 1.55 h19 gualandi wad 35 gram load 2.9mm shot case length 56 67mm chedditte cx 2000 with cheddite case 387 at 2.5 meters to centre of speed screen pressure 685 bar

and very good clean killers they are

[propercartridges]

Take A look inside GB Pigeon extreme. A0 1,95g, 34g 5 shot and z2m18 wad.... More like a "controdose".

 

J.A.

that seems like alot of powder for a 34 gram load any speeds and pressures thanks george

[neutron619]

Thank you both for your messages. I'll try both, see how they feel on the shoulder and report back.

 

Many thanks,

 

Adam.

[hakapiken]

that seems like alot of powder for a 34 gram load any speeds and pressures thanks george

Yes, IT is a lot of powder. A swedish frend opened up A cartridge to find out. The speed is ca 410 ms. I don'n know about pressure, but I assume GB are within CIP standards. GB are buying powder in bulk. Comercial A0 powder may not be exactly the same....

 

J.A.

[propercartridges]

Yes, IT is a lot of powder. A swedish frend opened up A cartridge to find out. The speed is ca 410 ms. I don'n know about pressure, but I assume GB are within CIP standards. GB are buying powder in bulk. Comercial A0 powder may not be exactly the same....

 

J.A.

j a i couldnt give a monkeys about speed its pressure i am worried about especialy when i am selling to jo publik that above load in a1 is brilliant and not to much of a kick but i am 17.5 stone and 5 11 but as always your mind is on the target but boy do they kill in 2.9mm shot by the way who is g b wot nationality are they cheers george

[hakapiken]

j a i couldnt give a monkeys about speed its pressure i am worried about especialy when i am selling to jo publik that above load in a1 is brilliant and not to much of a kick but i am 17.5 stone and 5 11 but as always your mind is on the target but boy do they kill in 2.9mm shot by the way who is g b wot nationality are they cheers george

GB = Gamebore

 

J.A.

[Continental Shooter]

It is well possible that their batch of powder is a lot slower than yours George; hence the higher powder quantity

 

Vectan have made a mockery of all their powders (that's possibly why they had to sell to NS) so, old retail one is far slower than modern retail one; factory one is naturally quicker than retail, but recent one slowed down a bit compared to the past ... it's a mess...

 

Also, their hull will be 70mm (which will reduce the pressure compared to the 67mm you use), their wad is B&P (which produces 40-60 bar less than Gualandi) and their primer might be Fiocchi 615/CX1000 which will suit the higher powder content.

 

Haka, that won't be a 'controdose' as it's well higher in pellet count and you wouldn't want a 'controdose' on a slow burning powder; too complicated to balance.

 

Personally, i would use the 1.80-1.90 for 36-40gr nothing less as it's a waste...

Edited March 20, 2017 by Continental Shooter

[Guest cookoff013]

This is why i test everything.

 

I have used A1 in 3" 36g lead loads. But with that i used 3" hull and a cushion steel target wad. Meaning a huge volume for the gasses to build up.

All got tested, and i got decent speed.

 

I used this format as a chassis for most nontoxic, and i also used it as a basis for 42g subsonics.

 

I wouldn't just go on the say-so of a friend "opening up a cartridge" cartridges have different ratings standard and HP. Infact they could be conceivably be identical apart from a few grains of powder increase in the HP version.

[harkom]

If choosing A1 for producing this load - is that with - A1 or A1special, or another "grade" of A1...?

[neutron619]

I'd be using plain A1, but I don't have a lot in stock, hence the question about A0.

[propercartridges]

It is well possible that their batch of powder is a lot slower than yours George; hence the higher powder quantity

 

Vectan have made a mockery of all their powders (that's possibly why they had to sell to NS) so, old retail one is far slower than modern retail one; factory one is naturally quicker than retail, but recent one slowed down a bit compared to the past ... it's a mess...

 

Also, their hull will be 70mm (which will reduce the pressure compared to the 67mm you use), their wad is B&P (which produces 40-60 bar less than Gualandi) and their primer might be Fiocchi 615/CX1000 which will suit the higher powder content.

 

Haka, that won't be a 'controdose' as it's well higher in pellet count and you wouldn't want a 'controdose' on a slow burning powder; too complicated to balance.

 

Personally, i would use the 1.80-1.90 for 36-40gr nothing less as it's a waste...

i used 70mm the measurment i gave was for a closed 6 star overall lengh finished cartridge not 67mm

[Continental Shooter]

ah right George, then it must be the batch of powder;

 

I looked back on my books and data and i can't find anything below 38gr for A0 other than some random test. that said though, i haven't loaded A0 in almost a decade (if not longer) so, the powder has had many changes and many owners since and it's definitely a lot quciker not than it was back then.

 

In A1 i would do 1,70 x 34 with a B&P Z2M18 and a medium primer (CX1000) it's quite a standard load if using below #6 (i.e. 4 and 2) i'd increase to 1,75 to compensate for the loss of obstruction caused by the smaller pellets. If you got CX2000 i'd drop it to 1,60/1,65 (check on a pattern plate which one patterns best).

 

cheers

[hakapiken]

It is well possible that their batch of powder is a lot slower than yours George; hence the higher powder quantity

 

Vectan have made a mockery of all their powders (that's possibly why they had to sell to NS) so, old retail one is far slower than modern retail one; factory one is naturally quicker than retail, but recent one slowed down a bit compared to the past ... it's a mess...

 

Also, their hull will be 70mm (which will reduce the pressure compared to the 67mm you use), their wad is B&P (which produces 40-60 bar less than Gualandi) and their primer might be Fiocchi 615/CX1000 which will suit the higher powder content.

 

Haka, that won't be a 'controdose' as it's well higher in pellet count and you wouldn't want a 'controdose' on a slow burning powder; too complicated to balance.

 

Personally, i would use the 1.80-1.90 for 36-40gr nothing less as it's a waste...

 

Gamebore must be wasting A lot of A0 on Pigeon Extreme then..... for A reason I think.

 

J.A.

[Continental Shooter]

Remember that gamebore need to have a shell that performs equally well in Canada and in Texas ...

 

The performances of this load must ensure that they are in pressure with hot weather as well as ignating properly in the cold.

 

So it is well possible that Gamebore had a batch of A0 specifically designed to suit that need.

[neutron619]

Gamebore must be wasting A lot of A0 on Pigeon Extreme then..... for A reason I think.

 

J.A.

 

I don't particularly want to raise the dead (i.e. the thread) here, but I though it was worth adding a comment as to the result of this particular experiment.

 

I managed to get some of these loaded yesterday, according to the Gamebore recipe, except that I used fibre wad and nitro card rather than plastic. I took them out for my walk today. Let's just say that I think I understand the comment above a bit better.

 

I had a bit of a zen moment just after 2pm this afternoon. I wasn't really thinking about taking the shot, worrying about lead, or anything. Just raised the gun and shot the crow as it came over the hedge. It wasn't high, but it was a reasonable distance out. Full choke barrel; bang; thud. It was what you might call "definitive". Ambled over to pick it up - 53 paces. In my-sized shoes, that's not much short of 60 yards.

 

I was very impressed with the cartridges' performance. And my goodness - I like this lighter loads on slow powders thing. They were smoooooooth as silk. I was shooting a Baikal SxS, so not a super-light fine English gun, but still not heavy. I've been thumped by some 30g loads in that gun, but these were much, much nicer to shoot.

 

I'll be loading some more. I'm recycling some Black Gold cases I've been storing up for a rainy day, so I think they'll cost me about £6.50/box, which is better than the £10.20/box that J.C. are currently asking for the commercial version.

 

Thanks to all who contributed thoughts / data above - much appreciated.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Good grief are you shooting a 12 bore again?

[neutron619]

Good grief are you shooting a 12 bore again?

 

Oh - just this afternoon.

 

I've no paper to shoot patterns with at the moment and I still haven't hadn't settled on a cartridge for that gun I got from Mick.

 

Variety is the spice of life and all that. Next week it'll probably be something else. Ahem.

[Continental Shooter]

 

I don't particularly want to raise the dead (i.e. the thread) here, but I though it was worth adding a comment as to the result of this particular experiment.

 

I managed to get some of these loaded yesterday, according to the Gamebore recipe, except that I used fibre wad and nitro card rather than plastic. I took them out for my walk today. Let's just say that I think I understand the comment above a bit better.

 

I had a bit of a zen moment just after 2pm this afternoon. I wasn't really thinking about taking the shot, worrying about lead, or anything. Just raised the gun and shot the crow as it came over the hedge. It wasn't high, but it was a reasonable distance out. Full choke barrel; bang; thud. It was what you might call "definitive". Ambled over to pick it up - 53 paces. In my-sized shoes, that's not much short of 60 yards.

 

I was very impressed with the cartridges' performance. And my goodness - I like this lighter loads on slow powders thing. They were smoooooooth as silk. I was shooting a Baikal SxS, so not a super-light fine English gun, but still not heavy. I've been thumped by some 30g loads in that gun, but these were much, much nicer to shoot.

 

I'll be loading some more. I'm recycling some Black Gold cases I've been storing up for a rainy day, so I think they'll cost me about £6.50/box, which is better than the £10.20/box that J.C. are currently asking for the commercial version.

 

Thanks to all who contributed thoughts / data above - much appreciated.

 

Do you realise you have a completely different shell tan the factory? but for that price and if they kill consistently... you might have found a better recipe than theirs.

 

be interesting to have data from a proofing barrel jus to see what slow powder+light load produced in terms of speed vs pressure

[neutron619]

Well - I'm aware there was some discussion above. Either way, the point you've identified is correct - they do seem to be effective.

 

I need to pattern them properly to show - as I believe to be the case - that they're producing a good pattern at long range, but on the basis of a field test, they're comfortable and apparently usable.

 

I would be interested to put them down a proofing barrel too. I suspect they're below the pressure limit. Gualandi publish 1.90g for a plastic wad and 39g under a star crimp. I've got 1.95g under nitro / fibre / cork stack, 34g and a star crimp - pressure should still be a little lower in my estimation. I suspect I could run them hotter, but I won't. I don't have any concerns that the gun is going to explode, at any rate.

 

I'm pretty certain they're supersonic - they certainly go bang! - and the burn appears to be pretty good. There isn't a lot of **** left on the inside of the barrels and some of what is there is bits of wad / cork. Not absolutely the cleanest shells I've ever used, but by no means dirty.

 

I may do a batch and send them off for proofing - if I do, I'll resurrect this thread a second time and share the data. Not the cheapest shell to load, it's true - but I'm very pleased so far.

Edited May 15, 2017 by neutron619