.22 hornet, primers protruding after firing

[fortune]

I still fail to understand how a situation occurs where the primer can be protruding out of the case far enough that you can't get the case in the press to deprime. When the case is bolted up the​ round is controlled by the headspace of the gun. >>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_(firearms).When the cartridge is fired, the case is forced back towards the bolt, So how does the primer find space​ to come out of the pocket. I have had reloads that have gone overpressure and the primers​ were flattened out flush with the base of the case, not blown backwards and protruding from the case.

[Daveo26]

I have no idea.

I don't understand it either but that's what's happened.

I bought new S&B brass, full length resized it then trimmed to length.

Loaded it the way I've said, was quite impressed with the way it performed.

Cleaned the fired brass, gone to deprime them to find I couldn't get it to fit in the shell holder in my press.

Then I've realised why, running my thumb nail over the primer I could feel they were raised not by much

I've done exactly the same with Remington brass and it's not done it......

Go figure

Daveo26,

 

 

The reduced capacity (thicker wall of the case) may be the root problem. There isn't enough pressure to stretch the case back to the bolt face, but enough pressure to get the primer there.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

Clive

I think Clive might be on to it there?

[fortune]

Daveo26,

 

I've not heard of much success with the S&B brass in the Hornet. The most common complaint is the flash hole being too small, along with the reduced capacity.(this might be a reason)

 

The reduced capacity (thicker wall of the case) may be the root problem. There isn't enough pressure to stretch the case back to the bolt face, but enough pressure to get the primer there.

This can't be the reason because the hornets operating pressure is in the region of 50 thousand psi. If that don't push the case​ back on the bolt face then there wouldn't be enough pressure to punch the bullet down the rifling at a velocity in excess of 2800 to 3000 FPS.

[Daveo26]

The first firing of a case is effectively forcing it to be the exact size of the chamber in any particular gun, yes?

So when I pull the trigger pressure acts in every direction on the brass,

forcing the brass to grip the internal surface of the guns chamber

I think somehow, maybe down to the thicker brass (as we know S&B must be thicker cases than Winchester because they hold less powder) not allowing the case to expand/stretch a tiny amount but instead moves the easiest thing the primer, back out of its pocket

Until it's against the bolt face

Either way, I'm using Remington brass with no issues now.

[Vince Green]

This thing, (protruding primers), happens in my .303 when I shoot cast bullet reduced loads for 100yds. I believe it to be because of the low recoil. The case remains held by the extractor rather than being pushed back flat against the bolt face.

 

Same cases with full load, flat primers

Edited April 24, 2017 by Vince Green

[njc110381]

A couple of thoughts...

 

The Hornet headspaces on the rim not the shoulder. Thin rims = more headspace.

 

This can't be the reason because the hornets operating pressure is in the region of 50 thousand psi. If that don't push the case​ back on the bolt face then there wouldn't be enough pressure to punch the bullet down the rifling at a velocity in excess of 2800 to 3000 FPS.

 

Not with Lil-Gun. Maximum charges produce under 30k cup, which is nowhere near 50k psi. It's a very low pressure powder in the .22 Hornet, although it can be known to spike in the .17.

 

I suspect that the lack of brass stretch because of the thickness of S&B caes and the low pressure of Lil-Gun may be the cause. I used to shoot Lil-Gun and S&B brass in my .22H and had a similar thing happen. Not to this extent, but it happened none the less. I ignored it and cracked on. I had no issues with short brass life and the rounds shot well enough to head shoot rabbits out to 250 yards.

 

Interestingly my loads were 13gr under a 35gr V-Max. That was pretty tightly stuffed in with no bother.

[alendil]

I am not a reloading specialist faaaar from it.

 

but best brass i ever used in my .22H CZ 527 is PPU.

my load is 12.8 grain of lil gun on small rifle primers by CCI and sierra hornet bullet 45grain .224

 

if ever my scales pack in i can just deep brass in powder and level it ( works spot on )

 

my brass last 10 to 12 shots and there are no pressure signs.

 

very accurate round

 

i will need to check how fast it gets.

[Brisbane]

On 18/04/2017 at 17:01, Daveo26 said:

I've been reloading for my .22 Hornet for a good few months now.

Initially I was using Winchester brass to good effect.

After a good few reloads I've replaced the brass with unfired sellier and bellot

I was surprised to find I could only fit 11.6 gr of lil gun in the case as opposed to 13 grains in the Winchester brass.

So I'm loading 35 grain V-Max over 11.6 grains of LiL gun, OAL is so they just fit in the mag

1.741"

Accuracy is good enough at 1" at 100 yards.

However in all the fired cases (18 so far) the the primers protrude a few thou.......

To the point where I can't get them to fit in the shell holder on my lee press to deprime them.

Why is this? What causes it? Should I reduce the powder charge? Is it a pressure sign?

Cheers Dave

I am not sure whether there is still any interest in this thread/subject? 

I have recently had exactly the same issues with protruding primers using Lil' Gun powder and found this thread very interesting.

I had previously been using the ADI (Australian Defense Industries) 2205 Powder for my 22 Hornet reloading and experienced no issues with primers or pressure.  As soon as i switched to Lil' Gun the primers started protruding.  I was using 40gr Winchester bullets, Lil' Gun start load of 12gr, ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) cases and CCI Small Rifle Primers.  I loaded several rounds starting below the start load (11.5gr) and worked up to below the maximum load (12.7gr) - all primers protruded, however there were no signs of high pressure i.e. flat primer, stiff bolt lift etc.

I thought this may be a headspace problem but the rifle was checked by a gunsmith who confirmed this was not so.  I have researched this issue further and i believe the protruding primers are a result of low pressure.  This is why:

The SAAMI Voluntary Performance Standards lists the Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) for the 22 Hornet as 43,000 CUP.

The ADI Powders Handloaders' Guide gives a pressure of 39,900 CUP for the start load (9gr) and 43,000 CUP for the max load (10.2gr) of AR2205 with a 40 gr bullet.  The maximum aligning with the SAAMI maximum above.

The Hodgdon Reloading Data Center lists the following pressures for the Hornet with Lil' Gun powder and a 40gr bullet: 24,900 CUP for the start load (12gr) and 28,400 CUP for the maximum load (13gr). 

It can be seen from the figures above that the maximum load pressure for the Lil' Gun is nowhere near the SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure.  In addition the maximum load pressure for Lil' Gun is substantially lower than the AR 2205 start load pressure.  As a result, it would appear that lack of case capacity for the  22 Hornet/Lil' Gun combination becomes the issue long before the maximum load pressure is reached - hence the compressed loads.

I did as Daveo26 did and changed cases, noting that his primers were okay using Winchester and Remington cases.  I switched to WW Super (Winchester-Western) cases and again loaded up some cartridges starting below the start load and finishing below the maximum load.  There was no primer protrusion for any of the loads.

I have no idea why primers don't protrude in the Winchester cases while they do in ICI cases (and others), but my 'theory' on why they do protrude is that the pressure generated by Lil' Gun is too low to 'seal' the cartridge case in the chamber during firing and prevent movement - hence the primers are able to move back out of the case and remain protruding once ejected.

For what it's worth!

Regards

 

 

[Daveo26]

On 26 May 2019 at 00:44, Brisbane said:

I am not sure whether there is still any interest in this thread/subject? 

I have recently had exactly the same issues with protruding primers using Lil' Gun powder and found this thread very interesting.

I had previously been using the ADI (Australian Defense Industries) 2205 Powder for my 22 Hornet reloading and experienced no issues with primers or pressure.  As soon as i switched to Lil' Gun the primers started protruding.  I was using 40gr Winchester bullets, Lil' Gun start load of 12gr, ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) cases and CCI Small Rifle Primers.  I loaded several rounds starting below the start load (11.5gr) and worked up to below the maximum load (12.7gr) - all primers protruded, however there were no signs of high pressure i.e. flat primer, stiff bolt lift etc.

I thought this may be a headspace problem but the rifle was checked by a gunsmith who confirmed this was not so.  I have researched this issue further and i believe the protruding primers are a result of low pressure.  This is why:

The SAAMI Voluntary Performance Standards lists the Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) for the 22 Hornet as 43,000 CUP.

The ADI Powders Handloaders' Guide gives a pressure of 39,900 CUP for the start load (9gr) and 43,000 CUP for the max load (10.2gr) of AR2205 with a 40 gr bullet.  The maximum aligning with the SAAMI maximum above.

The Hodgdon Reloading Data Center lists the following pressures for the Hornet with Lil' Gun powder and a 40gr bullet: 24,900 CUP for the start load (12gr) and 28,400 CUP for the maximum load (13gr). 

It can be seen from the figures above that the maximum load pressure for the Lil' Gun is nowhere near the SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure.  In addition the maximum load pressure for Lil' Gun is substantially lower than the AR 2205 start load pressure.  As a result, it would appear that lack of case capacity for the  22 Hornet/Lil' Gun combination becomes the issue long before the maximum load pressure is reached - hence the compressed loads.

I did as Daveo26 did and changed cases, noting that his primers were okay using Winchester and Remington cases.  I switched to WW Super (Winchester-Western) cases and again loaded up some cartridges starting below the start load and finishing below the maximum load.  There was no primer protrusion for any of the loads.

I have no idea why primers don't protrude in the Winchester cases while they do in ICI cases (and others), but my 'theory' on why they do protrude is that the pressure generated by Lil' Gun is too low to 'seal' the cartridge case in the chamber during firing and prevent movement - hence the primers are able to move back out of the case and remain protruding once ejected.

For what it's worth!

Regards

 

 

I'm glad someone found some use from this thread.

and I'm glad it's not just me that's had this issue.

all the best.

Dave