Where are they?

[anser2]

I'm not sure I would trust those figures too much. As you have said, pigeons move a hell of a lot, meaning a good count is very difficult.

I'm not sure exactly what part of the county you shoot, but I see good numbers all over North Norfolk when I drive around at work.

Ps, I doubt the harsh (ish) winter a few years back accounted for many dead pigeons. Far too much available food to sustain them.

The data is pretty strong from the BTO. It is derived from breeding birds not winter flocks and recording calling birds is easy. I have spent many hours doing it in breeding bird surveys using both transact and point countsand for wood pigeon I would think that method picks up about 90% +of breeding birds present in the woods. I shoot north east of Fakenham down to a few miles north east Dereham and the birds have been short supply for some years as others like Lakeside have also found. I am not suggesting there was a high mortality during the hard winters , but the birds may have moved away , though I would have thought they would have returned in numbers by now. The frost did turn much of the rape purple which the pigeons did not touch despite the cold. The N North Coast holds high numbers and thats not far away , but my farms are hold few birds now most of the time despite them being ideal habitat. Even if the birds were not feeding on my farms I would have thought I would have had plenty of birds comming into the woods to roost in winter. The woods are perfect about half fir in various ages from clear fell to mature and the remainder of the 1000 acre wood is oak with quite a bit of beech. A decade ago 50+ bags were regular feature roost shooting. My best roost shoot has been 12 this year and often just 1 or 2 for an evenings work. The simple fact is that the pigeons are not there in any numbers compared to a decade ago.

 

And i think the key word is a decade ago. Looking at the BTO graphs most shot a decline or leveling off in numbers around the same time suggesting the decline might be due to climatic change. We are in the an era of huge changes in the bio diversity of the UK. Who would have guessed 20 years ago little egrets would now be such a common marshland bird in England, dartford and cettis's warblers are both pushing north fast and many southern breeding birds are doing well, we have a range on insects that were unknown in the UK a decade ago spreading fast ( red eyed damselflies, willow damselflies , carptener bees or Rossels crickets, Coneheads and so on ) and other insects once restricted to southern England expanding north too. At the same time breeding birds such as snipe, woodcock, redshank, willow warblers are retreating north so perhaps the increase of wood pigeons in NW England and Scotland is a reflection of the same trend.

Edited April 21, 2017 by anser2

[anser2]

A Buzzard has no chance in taking a pigeon on the wing, I know, as years ago I had a couple of buzzards, lazy *******, only wanted carrion!

A agree as a whole . I have often had young buzzards hunting for voles on a stubble and still had pigeons comming into decoys. Thats something pigeons would not do if buzzards regulary hunted them , though I think they might take the odd easy one if they caught it by surprise. What i do suspect is that buzzards may be taking numbers of pigeon squabs out of the nest or newly fledged birds that are still weak flyers. Another could be the weather. We have had a run of poor summers with wind and sometimes heavy rain. Pigeon nests are not the strongest nests and may be damaged by such weather. Such conditions might account for a large percentage of the nest losses present on any one occasion.

[old'un]

Just read the BTO's Methodology and survey design page for counting the number of birds in 1-km squares, fieldwork involves three visits to each survey square per year!

 

Think I agree with motty, "I'm not sure I would trust those figures too much"

[aga man]

My sources are farmers, shooters, gamekeepers, and even the RSPB (Ugh!)....but numbers are falling, they are definitely NOT on the increase. As I said before, there are still hotspots across the Midlands and South East, but that is all.

And your numbers came from.....where? Not Defra, not RSPB,

With respect farmers gamekeepers etc are not best people to give opinions of woodpigeon numbers, I doubt if many of them or even the Rspb have ever witnessed busy flightlines coming out of a town.

As I said pigeon numbers might be falling in certain regions but in parts of East and North Yorkshire numbers are rising, to a keen pigeon shooter it is perfectly clear to see.They are just not necessarily in the woods & countryside, like they was years ago.

Just my opinion of course.

Edited April 21, 2017 by aga man

[old'un]

With respect farmers gamekeepers etc are not best people to give opinions of woodpigeon numbers, I doubt if many of them or even the Rspb have ever witnessed busy flightless coming out of a town.

As I said pigeon numbers might be falling in certain regions but in parts of East and North Yorkshire numbers are rising, to a keen pigeon shooter it is perfectly clear to see.They are just not necessarily in the woods & countryside, like they was years ago.

Just my opinion of course.

We don't get many of them around here, unless they are dead!

[aga man]

We don't get many of them around here, unless they are dead!

Well spotted old un predictive text on stupid phone!

[matone]

A Buzzard has no chance in taking a pigeon on the wing, I know, as years ago I had a couple of buzzards, lazy *******, only wanted carrion!

I was thinking more of of the effect of constant disturbance of winter roosts,not predation !

 

The roosts which held thousands in the 80`s & 90`s,now only hold a few hundred.I`m speaking of ground I`ve shot for over 40yrs so have a pretty good picture of what`s where .

Edited April 21, 2017 by matone

[anser2]

Just read the BTO's Methodology and survey design page for counting the number of birds in 1-km squares, fieldwork involves three visits to each survey square per year!

 

Think I agree with motty, "I'm not sure I would trust those figures too much"

The idea of BBS is not to gauge the overall numbers , but to find trends. Three visits are plenty to locate breeding pigeons, indeed most will be located in less than that, they are not hard to locate. You can hear them calling from over 100 yards away. if you find 10 calling males in a wood in year 1, 14 in year 2, 7 in year 3 , 11 in year 4, 9 in year 5 16 in year 6 12 in year 7 and 8 , 14 in year 9 and 11 in year 10, then the ten year average will show an increasing trend without the need ( its usually not possible ) to count every bird in a wood , just those on a walk long the same route every time and survey at the same time of the breeding season on 3 occasions 4 weeks apart.

 

 

I used to work for Natural England doing intergrated population studies on woodland song birds , catching and ringing the birds, locating nests to access the fledging success of the chicks and doing what was called CBC which has now changed into the BBS to locate all the territories in a wood and through ringing accessing mortality and survival rates we could develop a very good idea how the species was doing. We then coupled moth surveys ( to access caterpilar food for chicks and beech mast , food for adults ) and could gain a good idea of the reasons for changesin population trends. The BBS is no way near as through , but the BBS has proved to be a very good way of accessing population trends and will certantly work for a large and vocal bird like the wood pigeon .

 

The BTO has a neutral stance on shooting and its staff regularly write in the Shooting Times on conservation. So it has no axe to grind over shooting Wood pigeons.

Edited April 21, 2017 by anser2

[Jakey Boy]

I have moaned about the lack of pigeons before in my area, and after reading this string, I have to agree with most of the comments made.

 

Falling numbers : My area definitely, but as others have pointed out, their areas are still abundant. (Stats .... personally don't believe it's possible))

 

Turning City Birds : Returning from a day fly fishing (just before dusk), I was heading into Northampton when I saw a flight line which was quite busy. I decided to follow to see where they were heading, and ended up on the outskirts of Town ! (Aga Man made a good point)

 

Good thread though Chaps