410 or 28g

[Mark74]

Hi guys, looking for a little advice on a starter gun for my son. He's quite small for his age so I'm not sure a 20 bore would be suitable just yet.

It's been over 30 years since I started with a single barrel .410, at the time I only shot pigeon with my dad, not clays. I would be looking at decoyed pigeon and sporting clays with my son now so ideally our choice needs to be something with little recoil but still capable of being effective.

Although I can remember some success with my own .410 & had great fun with it I have never owned (or shot) a 28g.

I wonder if anyone with experience of both could steer us as to whether it's worth "upgrading" to a 28g (given the extra expense) or just stick to a cheaper double barrel .410 until my lad would be capable of a 20g

 

Many thanks for any insight 👍🏻

[Stonepark]

What age is he?

 

I was 'normal' build for an 8 year old and fine with a folding hammer 410 (13.5 inch stock) but was handling a 12b sxs by the time I was 12.

 

410 can be the lightest gun shooting with the lightest loads but limiting range but the 28b for 1/2lb heavier can handle from 410 to 20g loadings and would allow for longer use.

 

Cartridges are about same in price but you get about 5g more in average in the 28b cartridge.

 

What i would recommend is stick to cartridges with No7 or smaller shot for either, clay loads of no7.5 being effective to 35 to 40 yards on clays and pigeons and try to avoid full choked guns in both calibers as they are of little help to a beginner.

[Mark74]

Stonepark, he is 9 and will be 10 later in year.

[motty]

Get what you fancy.

[bakerboy]

Get him to a BASC or CPSA young shots day, he will be able to try a few differing guns and Gauges and get a little tuition in the process.

Look on the web sites for dates, there may even be something going on at the Euston Estate at Norwich this week end at the Essex Game Fair.

[E.w.]

Get him to a BASC or CPSA young shots day, he will be able to try a few differing guns and Gauges and get a little tuition in the process.

Look on the web sites for dates, there may even be something going on at the Euston Estate at Norwich this week end at the Essex Game Fair.

+ 1 that's the way to find out what suits him.

[motty]

Euston near Thetford, not Norwich.

[rbrowning2]

If he can handle a 28ga I would go for that as it gives greater flexibility and can grow with him 16gm loads to start with say moving up to 21 and 24gm when ready. Also consider reloading for it so you can then use 9 or 8 shot which will deliver excellent patterns.

[Mark74]

Thank you all for the input 👍🏻

[Walker570]

Yes, I agree on the 28 gauge and the advice above. A really good gauge for a youngster to start on. A 410, you do just have to be that little bit more accurate. The 28 gives you a slightly more dense pattern and is a good start AND the gun may just grow with him, as 28s are, like 410s becoming the gauge to shoot these days. One or two manufacturers make guns with two sets of barrels, 28 and 20. Just according to how much you want to spend.

I shoot a Yilditz o/u 410 for my driven game days and they come with a choice of three choke tubes. I believe you can also get the same model in 28 gauge. I have shot two full seasons ...48 driven days with mine and had no problems whatsoever. Nice light handling gun and they also do a youth model.

[bakerboy]

The Game Fair is The East Anglian Game Fair.

 

And Motty is correct Thetford not Norwich.

 

Terry

[neutron619]

+1 for the 28 gauge - if he can handle one, start there.

 

An ongoing project a few of us from the forum are working on is testing all the .410 shells we can get our hands on. One, particularly - the Eley Trap 19g/#7½ - has performed exceptionally well with the test gun we've been using. Take my word for it - if you go the .410 route and he can manage a 3" shell, try those first.

 

On the other hand, none of them compares to this half-choke, 40-yard pattern from the 28 gauge test gun (Eley VIP 21g /#7):

 

 

Sorry about the image quality. That's 167 in the circle at 40 and two more constrictions to tighten if you wanted to squeeze another 5-10 yards out of our test gun. Other patterns of that cartridge are slightly better / slightly worse. Ok - it's not a 30 gram 12 gauge load so you don't expect 200 plus holes in the paper, but it's pretty good for ¾oz out of a small tube with a medium choke.

 

My point is: your boy won't be shooting 40-yard+ anything to start with, I imagine, but if you go down the 28 gauge route, he won't be limited by the gun when he wants to.

 

I like shooting .410 a lot, but so far for that bore size, we've found one shell that will (just) manage 40 yards, two that will get a little past 30, and a whole load of others that run out of steam before they're 25 yards out. Some of the lighter loads won't make a usable pattern at all. Too small close in and too gappy further out - you'd have to aim the gun like a rifle to use them effectively - not a good way to introduce a youngster to instinctive shooting. Probably only two of the cartridges we've tested are acceptably good for live game, and if you generally need higher pattern density for clays - well - probably none of them are really up to it, 100% of the time.

 

On the other hand, the pattern above is from a very average, ordinary load for 28 gauge. Whatever 28 gauge and cartridge you buy for him is probably going to print a usable pattern at most ranges, clays or game, and he can grow into the gun and keep it for 10 years before you get him a new one, if needs be. He may not want a new gun by then, of course.

 

Good luck.

Edited April 21, 2017 by neutron619

[Walker570]

neutron, have you included penetration tests? As important if not more so than pattern. I have done some testing using folded newsprint soaked over night in a bucket of water. The newsprint has been around 3/4 inch thick and compressed. It does give you a very good idea of what penetration each load gives and as near as I can find to represent a pheasant or duck breast meat. I was surprised just how well the Fiocchi 18gr 8s did. I suppose they are about 71/4 UK. The Fiocchi 410s are now listed 18gr but if you weigh the loads they are closer to 19. I am led to believe the factory found the loading machines were not quite pitting a full 19grms in so ...trading standards... marked them up as 18.

I would be interested to see how those Eley trap shells penetrated.

I did my tests at a measured 35 yrds

Edited April 21, 2017 by Walker570

[neutron619]

neutron, have you included penetration tests? As important if not more so than pattern. I have done some testing using folded newsprint soaked over night in a bucket of water. The newsprint has been around 3/4 inch thick and compressed. It does give you a very good idea of what penetration each load gives and as near as I can find to represent a pheasant or duck breast meat. I was surprised just how well the Fiocchi 18gr 8s did. I suppose they are about 71/4 UK. The Fiocchi 410s are now listed 18gr but if you weigh the loads they are closer to 19. I am led to believe the factory found the loading machines were not quite pitting a full 19grms in so ...trading standards... marked them up as 18.

I would be interested to see how those Eley trap shells penetrated.

I did my tests at a measured 35 yrds

 

Nope, no penetration tests yet, except on wood pigeons, which have seemed to come down without flapping for the most part, although the number of tests of that type remains limited to opportunistic shots taken whilst patterning at this point. We'll get round to penetration testing when all the initial patterning is done, I'm sure.

 

Funnily enough, the Fiocchis - despite their reputation - have performed very badly in our test gun so far. We've seen a couple of just-about-usable (c. 110-120 in the circle) patterns with the (Italian) #7½'s at 30 yards, but certainly nothing close to a 40-yard pattern so far. For comparison, the Eley Trap is putting 150-170 in the circle at 30 yards and averaging 125 at 40yd on the data so far. I personally think that's impressive, but others may be less moved by it.

 

We haven't tested the lighter chokings (0.005" / 0.010") with the Fiocchis yet, however, so there is still the possibility that less constriction will improve those patterns. Was it you who said to me once that you used a 0.008" constriction with the Fiocchis, or am I remembering someone else? Anyway - we've not given up and we're still to obtain some of the brands we know are available but for whom we haven't located suppliers. When we're close to getting the .410 stuff finished, we'll publish the data en masse, but it's a slow job - time and money for the project are both limited somewhat.

[Mark74]

Thanks for taking the time to write such detailed advice Neutron 👍🏻

[Walker570]

Interesting about the Eley's. I'll try some. I shoot the full and full Yilditz chokes in my shotgun, what the restriction is I don't know, but they throw a pretty good pattern, although I haven't gone to the trouble of counting hits. I was given some Clever to try last season, just a dozen and everything I hit came down dead. I am loading some of my own this summer to try on pigeon, UK 7 to try. I was hoping that George would get into loading some 410s, but can understand the problems. I am beginning to feel that with 410s in particular it is a matter of experimenting to find what your gun likes and sticking with it.

[neutron619]

Thanks for taking the time to write such detailed advice Neutron

 

No problem. Hope you find something suitable - the Yildiz are good little guns for what it's worth.

 

Interesting about the Eley's. I'll try some. I shoot the full and full Yilditz chokes in my shotgun, what the restriction is I don't know, but they throw a pretty good pattern, although I haven't gone to the trouble of counting hits. I was given some Clever to try last season, just a dozen and everything I hit came down dead. I am loading some of my own this summer to try on pigeon, UK 7 to try. I was hoping that George would get into loading some 410s, but can understand the problems. I am beginning to feel that with 410s in particular it is a matter of experimenting to find what your gun likes and sticking with it.

 

I agree - they can be very finicky. If you want to play about with the Yildiz, I'd advise loosening the chokes a bit. The test gun we're using (a Yildiz SxS) has constrictions of .005", .010", .015", .020" and .025". I don't know what yours will have, but we've found that the 0.025" choke blows patterns, pretty reliably, regardless of cartridge. The Eleys perform best with .015" and .020" constrictions and almost everything else with one or other of those two. 0.018" appears to be the magic number, but obviously having custom chokes ground out is something to do when we're certain, rather than part way through testing...

 

Drop me a PM and I can send you some of the early data if you're interested.

Edited April 22, 2017 by neutron619

[figgy]

Yildiz 20bore 28" barrels with junior stock, very light to hold and will shoot more range of carts and can be used for many years as he grows.

 

Is your buying used and not sure if he will like it a Yildiz single barrel folder, you can use it for mooching hedgerows.

[Stonepark]

 

No problem. Hope you find something suitable - the Yildiz are good little guns for what it's worth.

 

 

I agree - they can be very finicky. If you want to play about with the Yildiz, I'd advise loosening the chokes a bit. The test gun we're using (a Yildiz SxS) has constrictions of .005", .010", .015", .020" and .025". I don't know what yours will have, but we've found that the 0.025" choke blows patterns, pretty reliably, regardless of cartridge. The Eleys perform best with .015" and .020" constrictions and almost everything else with one or other of those two. 0.018" appears to be the magic number, but obviously having custom chokes ground out is something to do when we're certain, rather than part way through testing...

 

Drop me a PM and I can send you some of the early data if you're interested.

 

 

My results echo neutrons, but with my gun (Khan K226) .012 to 0.15 appears to the sweet spot before the pattern starts to blow.

 

I have been using the Eley 3 inch No7 fibre to 35 yards for pheasant/partridge days and been obtaining clean kills with patterns averaging 135 pellets for 0.012 constriction.

 

My home loads which are 7 1/4 are averaging 170 pellets with 0.012 at 35 yards and dropping pigeons out to 40 yards.