quentyn Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 this is a weird one i heard today that some ones gun has been failed at the proof house as whilst it is stamped on the barrels that it has 3 inch chambers they are actually 2 3/4 inch. Now the gun in question is a beretta silver pigeon ( not sure of age but isnt new possibly 10 years old maybe 15) is this a common issue ? one presumes that there is some kind of standard to what constitutes a 3 inch chamber ? can the chambers shrink with age / use ( i am struggling here too) ? do the italians measure from a different point than the UK proof houses ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 No. In fact the chamber length specs are from the cip with minimum length. I think 76mm chambers must be a minimum of 76mm +2mm minimum. Chambers don't shrink. All cip members must adhere to the chamber specs. Failed at what proofing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 Where did you hear this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quentyn Posted June 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 No. In fact the chamber length specs are from the cip with minimum length. I think 76mm chambers must be a minimum of 76mm +2mm minimum. Chambers don't shrink. All cip members must adhere to the chamber specs.Failed at what proofing? failed because the barrels say 3 inch on the side and the proof house says not apparently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 hello, i am sure lots of PW members would be pleased if you could find out more info not sure why a 10/15 year old gun would need re proofing ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 hello, i am sure lots of PW members would be pleased if you could find out more info not sure why a 10/15 year old gun would need re proofing ? Great point. Seems very odd that it's gone to the proof house... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Could be for steel proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 The chambers could be tight forward ,so that the current Proof House Guage will not go full length-----a fail ! The Proof House have been causing the Trade nightmares like this for a couple of years or so .Apparently the experienced,pragmatic people have all retired,being replaced by other types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 The chambers could be tight forward ,so that the current Proof House Guage will not go full length-----a fail ! The Proof House have been causing the Trade nightmares like this for a couple of years or so .Apparently the experienced,pragmatic people have all retired,being replaced by other types. I suspect this is right; I have heard similar and I believe there is now a new spec for the plug gauges used that has minor differences (not sure in detail but I believe updating older UK style to full CIP?) - which has caused some problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 well, if it fails just one of the dimentions it would fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 If it fails for that reason then surely it just needs to have the correct chamber length stamped on and the wrong information Xd out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Would not this gun best referred to Beretta......surely it is an engineering/manufacturing fault present from new! And as such Berettas resonsibility to rectify it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncher Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 I bought a Faustino ten bore over and under ,had it checked before I bought it by a Gunsmith,yep fine gun. So I had the chokes takes out a bit as it was very tight ,went for a reproof and failed both chambers were only 3 inch even though it had 86 mm on the side and had passed proof before . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 I bought a Faustino ten bore over and under ,had it checked before I bought it by a Gunsmith,yep fine gun. So I had the chokes takes out a bit as it was very tight ,went for a reproof and failed both chambers were only 3 inch even though it had 86 mm on the side and had passed proof before . So did you keep it and shoot it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 I bought a Faustino ten bore over and under ,had it checked before I bought it by a Gunsmith,yep fine gun. So I had the chokes takes out a bit as it was very tight ,went for a reproof and failed both chambers were only 3 inch even though it had 86 mm on the side and had passed proof before . Why did you send it for reproof? Choke easing doesn't render the gun out of proof! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncher Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 I can't remember why I had it done ,I had the chambers taken out to the correct length,and reproof it passed but I lost interest and sold it to a gun shop .Just because it has passed they are only human and make mistakes but that ten was more than a small error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westward Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 This could escalate into a serious issue because Beretta has a branch of the Italian proof house based on site and for all practical purposes proof their own guns. If the UK proof house are now using different tolerances from their Italian counterparts there could be trouble ahead for anyone with an Italian shotgun that requires reproofing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 This could escalate into a serious issue because Beretta has a branch of the Italian proof house based on site and for all practical purposes proof their own guns. If the UK proof house are now using different tolerances from their Italian counterparts there could be trouble ahead for anyone with an Italian shotgun that requires reproofing. You measure the chamber length from the breech face to the start of the forcing cone, if it measures 23/4" (69.85mm) that's what it is, not sure what you mean by "different tolerances" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quentyn Posted June 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 I suspect this is right; I have heard similar and I believe there is now a new spec for the plug gauges used that has minor differences (not sure in detail but I believe updating older UK style to full CIP?) - which has caused some problems. thanks John, thats perfect - explains what I have heard. I can imagine that the gunsmiths sending guns for proofing must be irritated as guns can fail for no apparent reason... oh well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quentyn Posted June 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Would not this gun best referred to Beretta......surely it is an engineering/manufacturing fault present from new! And as such Berettas resonsibility to rectify it? if it was new yes but this one as far as i know is 10-15 yrs old and isnt 2nd hand but i suspect has passed through many hands. Now if my almost brand new Beretta SP failed a re proof ( cant see it going there for 20-30 yrs tbh) i would be quite uppity with the importers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) thanks John, thats perfect - explains what I have heard. I can imagine that the gunsmiths sending guns for proofing must be irritated as guns can fail for no apparent reason... oh well I think the story (which I seem to remember came from another forum) went along these lines; Some few years ago, the CIP governing body 'discovered' that many of the proof houses (including the UK and presumably possibly Beretta's 'in house' facility) were using old plug gauges some of which had originated under pre CIP rules. They were all broadly similar, but when accurately measured, not identical. A certain amount of good old fashioned common sense was used in interpretation, and I believe that tolerances were sufficiently wide to allow for this. However, strictly, there were instances where a gun 'passed' with one set of gauges would 'fail' with another. As they were 'go/no-go' type gauges this was a problem unless the 'common sense' was applied. I have a feeling that old UK gauges were a 'metricised' version of an imperial gauge, and the tolerances were wide enough to allow this. In addition to this, manufacturers chamber cones, so called back boring, chamber diameter - and other things all varied a bit ..... A new set of definitions with defined tolerances was agreed and a set of accurately dimensioned gauges drawn up - and a date set after which these MUST be used and strictly adhered to - no interpretation or common sense, IFs or BUTs. The outcome was that a few (I believe it was a small few) may have just taken the old gauge, but just not take the new gauge. The new system will follow the new gauge strictly ...... and so the original marking will be 'wrong' under the stricter rules. Edited June 21, 2017 by JohnfromUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pushandpull Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Strange things do happen. I owned a Browning A1, marked as 3" on the barrel and on the original packaging (I didn't buy it new). On removing the fore end wood it turned out to be proved at 70 mm. The previous owner took it back and I think is still using 3" cartridges in it. Then there was the new Remington .243 which wouldn't group - couldn't even get a strike. It turned out to have a .308 barrel. That tale came from someone running deer courses who experienced it with a client. Must have been a nightmare getting their FAC amended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 On imported guns, does anyone know where the imperial chamber length marking on the barrels are done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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