rich_morris Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Hi, I took my son clay shooting at the weekend for the first time. He used a .410 with 2" 9g load and got on ok with that. His grandad is now keen to buy him his own gun, and seems set on a 20b. Size wise, I think it will be fine (he has an eye on a junior size stock) but I am concerned that maybe the recoil may be a bit of a step up from what we used yesterday, and maybe put my son off. He's tall, but not in any way bulky! I thought maybe a 28b might be a good starter...but... In the event we end up with the 20b, what cartridges would you advise with least recoil? Any help appreciated. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 20bore subsonic cartridges. no load above 24g. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetter Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 My Daughter who is a bit older shoots 21g and has no issues with recoil. Worth seeing if you can get your son to have a go with a 20 bore for a few shots with light loads to see how he gets on. As your Beds I shoot at Risley off and on and probably will be on the 30th so if your son fancies a go with my daughters 20 bore let me know. Cheers Zetter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted July 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Thanks cookoff - I'll look into that, I've never used any subsonic myself, will we notice any difference in clay breaking performance? Thanks zetter, that's a kind offer. I'll see about availability on 30th. Certainly my son will be keen to have another go. Last thing I want to do is give him a bruised shoulder or face, and stop him having a grin on his face when he breaks a pair of clays on report. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 (edited) Thanks cookoff - I'll look into that, I've never used any subsonic myself, will we notice any difference in clay breaking performance? You'll probably smoke more of them if you're on them. Subsonics will tend to pattern tighter and more evenly. +5-15% in the circle at 40, depending on what you're comparing them with. I'm currently working on a field test / article which shows exactly that - PM me if you want the link when it's finished. Cooky will have plenty to say on the subject if you want to go to the horses mouth, so to speak. Edited July 24, 2017 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliveward Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Rich, I looked at both 20 and 28 for my lad who's 10 and it was the lightest gun that won in the shop. That was a Lincoln 28B. Your lad being a bit older would probably be fine for a 20 with youth proportions. The recoil you can sort out with cartridge choice. My lad and his older cousin can comfortably get through 100 16 gram #9 cartridges in the 28 between them without being bashed about at all. I would guess that a heavier gun in 20 with 21 Gram cartridges would be just as comfortable. You can always sort out fit with slip on recoil pads and cheek risers. If you're at all worried the 20 will be too much of a jump, then go for the 28. Cheers Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted July 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 You'll probably smoke more of them if you're on them. Subsonics will tend to pattern tighter and more evenly. +5-15% in the circle at 40, depending on what you're comparing them with. I'm currently working on a field test / article which shows exactly that - PM me if you want the link when it's finished. Cooky will have plenty to say on the subject if you want to go to the horses mouth, so to speak. Awesome! Thanks for that. It certainly doesn't sound like they will be limiting, especially for somebody fairly new to the sport. Certainly better than a sore shoulder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted July 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Rich, I looked at both 20 and 28 for my lad who's 10 and it was the lightest gun that won in the shop. That was a Lincoln 28B. Your lad being a bit older would probably be fine for a 20 with youth proportions. The recoil you can sort out with cartridge choice. My lad and his older cousin can comfortably get through 100 16 gram #9 cartridges in the 28 between them without being bashed about at all. I would guess that a heavier gun in 20 with 21 Gram cartridges would be just as comfortable. You can always sort out fit with slip on recoil pads and cheek risers. If you're at all worried the 20 will be too much of a jump, then go for the 28. Cheers Clive Thanks Clive, I will see if a can slow my dad's enthusiasm down, and try and borrow a 20b and some subsonic cartridges. If he can't get on with that, then I will try with the 28b. I started with a 20b myself, but I was maybe a little older than my son is now. Maybe a bit sturdier too! Cheers Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 (edited) Please borrow one and try it first. I bought my son a 20 bore after he had been shooting .410 for a few months. He is 11 and quite tall for his age but even with 21G cartridges the recoil was too much for him. I couldn't find subsonic cartridges anywhere so despite persevering he went back to a .410. he now shoots a Yildiz 410 and loves it. Edited July 24, 2017 by Wingman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 You'll probably smoke more of them if you're on them. Subsonics will tend to pattern tighter and more evenly. +5-15% in the circle at 40, depending on what you're comparing them with. I'm currently working on a field test / article which shows exactly that - PM me if you want the link when it's finished. Cooky will have plenty to say on the subject if you want to go to the horses mouth, so to speak. I second that all the way, chokes become immaterial, as the patterns become denser, less flyers. It's the edge of the pattern that evens. Now there will be a slight difference on extreme targets, just a tiny lead more. But it's better than only 9g of shot. 20and28 overlap too much to exclusively go 28. Let alone trying to buy shells . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 If you are worried about face bruising etc, then focus more on correct gun mount than which cartridge to use. Even a light 12 with 21gm cartridges could be well suited to someone of that age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakerboy Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 (edited) Hi, I took my son clay shooting at the weekend for the first time. He used a .410 with 2" 9g load and got on ok with that. His grandad is now keen to buy him his own gun, and seems set on a 20b. Size wise, I think it will be fine (he has an eye on a junior size stock) but I am concerned that maybe the recoil may be a bit of a step up from what we used yesterday, and maybe put my son off. He's tall, but not in any way bulky! I thought maybe a 28b might be a good starter...but... In the event we end up with the 20b, what cartridges would you advise with least recoil? Any help appreciated. Rich Get down to the Game Fair at Hatfield this weekend and try some guns. The BASC Coaching line will have guns of differing gauges with a variety of cartridges. If you are a BASC member entry is Free. There will be .410 28g 20g and 12g available to suit all sizes Edited July 24, 2017 by bakerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 subsonics are also called trainer cartridges, however over the past years 24g international cartridges, and the lighter ones are cheaper and more readily available. but the trainer cartridges are lighter in recoil like for like loadings. http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/clay/cartridges/subsonic-20-lr check out the recoil stats. about half a bar. http://www.lyalvaleexpress.com/product/magnasonic-twenty-fibre-21-grams-2/ these i have never seen, but i made a 12gauge version./ these would be the lightest recoil ever. *subsonics recoil so little they may not reset the trigger switch for the second barrel* that is how little they recoil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 https://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/clay/20g-super-competition-low-noise these are marketed at the competition shooter 28grams of shot, now they are low recoil, but not like the others. this is designed for recoil sensitive shooters who want to compete. very different that what you require,..... i`d sudgest, buy some of the previous loads and try them out for your self. i wouldnt be suprised if you like them too. ps, chokes dont make much difference with subs, nip in skeet, or 1/4 then have at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/clay/cartridges/subsonic-20-lrcheck out the recoil stats. about half a bar. Just a word of caution here. I was testing the Hull 12 gauge subsonic load for the article I mentioned above. On hot days, you may find, they're not quite as subsonic as advertised, with associated slightly heavier recoil. Hull's recoil charts do seem about right, for their range, but "half a bar" isn't 10% of the recoil of 5 bars - read it as a relative, not absolute indication of recoil. Compared to the Sovereigns I was using as my "fast" cartridge though, the subsonics were quite comfortable in a Baikal SxS. Sovereigns, on the other hand, are complete pigs. Totally unnecessary. I've fired 40g cartridges (in that SxS) that felt more comfortable. Edited July 25, 2017 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I see just cartridges are now doing 'lite' 21g in both 20 and 12.I have not shot them but I do vouch for their CSPs in 28g a v good cartridge. Both my lads were on 20 bores from @ 12-13 yrs old..a 9g 410 is as gentle a recoil nudge as you can get......maybe if Grandad bought a couple of shooting lessons/so mount/fit get a look in then a 20g is good way to go.But even with 21g the 'nudge' is noticeably more than the 9g gave... PS call it a nudge with the young lad the word recoil scares their pants off!..atb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve d Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 Have you thought about a semi? The Escort Youth is mustard and you can lengthen the stock with spacers provided as he grows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted August 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2017 Have you thought about a semi? The Escort Youth is mustard and you can lengthen the stock with spacers provided as he grows. It's funny you should say that. Having thought I'd convinced his grandad to wait until we'd tried a few guns out, I got a phone call today. He's picked up a Hatsan 20b Escort Youth. I'd also picked up a couple of boxes of subsonic 20b cartridges - which I have no idea if they will cycle the Hatsan properly!?! I guess I'll find out! Thanks Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetter Posted August 3, 2017 Report Share Posted August 3, 2017 We had a Hatsan youth a while ago and it would not cycle 20 bore subsonics from recollection I think ours needed at least 24 gram to cycle reliably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted August 3, 2017 Report Share Posted August 3, 2017 He used a .410 with 2" 9g load and got on ok with that. >>> If he is having fun and knocking some down what's the urgency to change just yet? His grandad is now keen to buy him his own gun, and seems set on a 20b. >>> As above. He's your boy? Advise gently.!! what cartridges would you advise with least recoil? >>> We've all been here before with wives, daughters and various children. It's not just a situation of recoil it's upper body strength and the ability to shoulder the weapon without bending over backwards. Many times I have seen a gang of well meaning blokes surrounding a beginner who is trying to shoot a gun that is too much for them to shoulder and getting knocked about in the process. Keep in mind the fun aspect of shooting and not trying to be digweed.also the fact that shot has the same mass and Velocity out of any gun irrigardless of bore size. Any help appreciated. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted August 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2017 He used a .410 with 2" 9g load and got on ok with that. >>> If he is having fun and knocking some down what's the urgency to change just yet? His grandad is now keen to buy him his own gun, and seems set on a 20b. >>> As above. He's your boy? Advise gently.!! what cartridges would you advise with least recoil? >>> We've all been here before with wives, daughters and various children. It's not just a situation of recoil it's upper body strength and the ability to shoulder the weapon without bending over backwards. Many times I have seen a gang of well meaning blokes surrounding a beginner who is trying to shoot a gun that is too much for them to shoulder and getting knocked about in the process. Keep in mind the fun aspect of shooting and not trying to be digweed.also the fact that shot has the same mass and Velocity out of any gun irrigardless of bore size. Any help appreciated. Rich Really, I am not in a hurry! I was quite happy sticking with the .410. , Which we borrowed. It's grandads enthusiasm to get him is own gun where the "problem" lies! I think he thinks 20b Will be ok, and won't need to "upgrade" too soon... I guess I'll try him with the 20b, and if he doesn't get on with it yet, I'll sort out a .410 for a while. Thanks Rich We had a Hatsan youth a while ago and it would not cycle 20 bore subsonics from recollection I think ours needed at least 24 gram to cycle reliably. Thanks for that info. I'll try the subsonics in an OU first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted August 3, 2017 Report Share Posted August 3, 2017 Seen this a lot Best way I've found take the 4.10 for lad shoot 20 bore yourself trying out a new gun is a good phrase about 1/2 way round lad should have asked about it how to load etc If He's showing some interest in it ask if he wants a bit of a go He's either going to want to shoot the (easy) stand you picked or give it back after 2 shots Remember he's a kid and it's fun All the best Of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted August 3, 2017 Report Share Posted August 3, 2017 At least with a .410 he will learn to shoot it properly and you can step up to 3 inch shells and bring him on slowly. That worked for my 10 year old he started to flinch when I gave him a 20 bore so we stepped back to the .410 and haven't looked back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted August 3, 2017 Report Share Posted August 3, 2017 It's grandads enthusiasm to get him is own gun where the "problem" lies! I think he thinks 20b Will be ok, and won't need to "upgrade" too soon.. Upgrading is fun. I've got all sorts of guns from 410 to 12 and all of them will take clays if the pattern is put on the target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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