New Clear Pigeon

[motty]

Matt, I am fully aware of the size and weight of the shot charge in Pigeon Extreme. I used some when they first hit the shelves well over a decade ago. My point still stands.

[wymberley]

Although Ive not tried every cartridge they have made- the speed, range and stopping power available by using extreme made clear pigeon redundant on my days out. Also they have improved my shooting skills massively, untold confidence in high fast birds that I didnt have before, resulting in some excellent sport and some jaw dropping shots.

Are you using these (Extreme Pigeon) on pigeon? The speed is largely irrelevant, the stopping power (pellet energy) is beyond doubt, but what range are we talking about?

[Me matt]

Having read the specs of extreme and clear pigeon - the extreme are 50ft p/s faster, and according to gamebore the extreme diamond shot gives better shot patterns, just maybe those two small improvements over clear pigeon produced a bit of something I was missing....

In terms of distance, I decoy at about 25 to 30 metres roughly, but its not birds on the way in where Ive noticed the difference, its passing high birds.

[figgy]

Did johnnyoftheboy test the clear pigeon and pigeon extreme in his cartridge velocity tests. Be interesting to see what they actually do in a normal gun over the Chrono.

Confidence is a big part of shooting but I agree a 32g of six would be hard to tell apart on shooting results.

 

Just checked johnny's results and he did test both carts and clear pigeon 32g were 1244fps

pigeon extreme 34g were 1291fps so your not far off with your 50fps difference.

Edited August 7, 2017 by figgy

[Me matt]

Did johnnyoftheboy test the clear pigeon and pigeon extreme in his cartridge velocity tests. Be interesting to see what they actually do in a normal gun over the Chrono.

Confidence is a big part of shooting but I agree a 32g of six would be hard to tell apart on shooting results.

 

Just checked johnny's results and he did test both carts and clear pigeon 32g were 1244fps

pigeon extreme 34g were 1291fps so your not far off with your 50fps difference.

Thanks for confirming that.

[motty]

Thanks for confirming that.

They may well be faster (if only a miniscule amount in real terms), but that will not make them better.

[ElvisThePelvis]

Shot old and new back to back yesterday out to 40M absolute max but most between 25M and 35M both in 32g 6 fibre (don't like littering)

 

The neŵ clear cased ones killed MUCH better than the ****ty black cased ones which as usual mostly resulted in runners, as did the express my buddy was using.

 

All shot through franchi affinity and briley extended half choke

 

Next step will be to compare them against my favoured dark storm game cartridge 30g in 6 (5)

[figgy]

So something is amiss if the old ones are giving you runners. Have you split both to see what the difference is?

[Stonepark]

So something is amiss if the old ones are giving you runners. Have you split both to see what the difference is?

They changed the powder and therefore the pressure and patterning to start with... .

[rbrowning2]

They changed the powder and therefore the pressure and patterning to start with... .

Is their any scientific reports published on how much a change in pressure influences pattern?

I ask as I have a problem getting my head round the assumption that a modest change in pressure can really influence the pattern at the range of a target, from a scatter gun.

As all cartridges are loaded to confirm to CIP for maximum pressure and deviation. They will not generally be loaded to the max but to a pressure that delivers the velocity (hence energy) the manufacture wants the cartridge to perform to and compliant to CIP at that velocity.

Within a box of cartridges virtually every one will obtain a different pressure and virtually every gun may have a different chamber dimension and bore. Then we have chokes to control the pattern. So just how big an impact can a few bar have on patterns at 35yards?

Or is it the variation in pressure with every cartridge that gives us a pattern at all? And why plastic wads reportedly give a better pattern than fibre, given plastic wads generally havea better pressure standard deviation sd.

Can gamebore the cartridge manufacture control the patterns to that degree.

[dougall]

Shot old and new back to back yesterday out to 40M absolute max but most between 25M and 35M both in 32g 6 fibre (don't like littering)

 

The neŵ clear cased ones killed MUCH better than the ****ty black cased ones which as usual mostly resulted in runners, as did the express my buddy was using.

 

All shot through franchi affinity and briley extended half choke

 

Next step will be to compare them against my favoured dark storm game cartridge 30g in 6 (5)

Of course runners can happen with any cartridge...but would expect any 32g 6 to clean kill at 25-35 m. It may just be that certain cartridges work better in your gun etc but no doubt it will influence your cartridge purchases going forward....I must admit talk of pressures/speeds/wad types/shot size etc I think is hardly relevant on birds within such ranges..Does your sample 'trial' cover a few hundred shots or was it a handful of these v a handful of those?..Certainly if over a good number of shots it is a surprise that there is a noticeable difference.

[Me matt]

They may well be faster (if only a miniscule amount in real terms), but that will not make them better.

Thanks for confirming that.

[Matt S.]

I've used clear pigeon for many years,if i have runners it's down to my poor shot placement.

[Nmb]

I bought a slab and filled my cartridge bag up for a pigeon and crow day. Back pain got in the way however so I told my dad to grab the cartridge bag and give them a try. 67 pigeon and 21 crows later he proclaimed them to be brilliant but he couldn't undertsand why the cases were not clear and a weird olive colour. Turns out he had taken my clay shooting bag filled with cheddite 28gram 7 1/2s by mistake!

Makes me wonder if it's all marketing nonsense with this heavy diamond shot and fast powder marketing!

I am out this weekend so will see how the new version perform. I remeber using the old clear pigeons on pheasant days years ago,and they seemed to be popular back then.

[ElvisThePelvis]

Of course runners can happen with any cartridge...but would expect any 32g 6 to clean kill at 25-35 m. It may just be that certain cartridges work better in your gun etc but no doubt it will influence your cartridge purchases going forward....I must admit talk of pressures/speeds/wad types/shot size etc I think is hardly relevant on birds within such ranges..Does your sample 'trial' cover a few hundred shots or was it a handful of these v a handful of those?..Certainly if over a good number of shots it is a surprise that there is a noticeable difference.

Patterned much more evenly and shot around 60 of each cartridges at pigeons for 57 picked, only winged/runners were with old black carts, not one with clear carts.

[Stonepark]

Is their any scientific reports published on how much a change in pressure influences pattern?

I ask as I have a problem getting my head round the assumption that a modest change in pressure can really influence the pattern at the range of a target, from a scatter gun.

As all cartridges are loaded to confirm to CIP for maximum pressure and deviation. They will not generally be loaded to the max but to a pressure that delivers the velocity (hence energy) the manufacture wants the cartridge to perform to and compliant to CIP at that velocity.

Within a box of cartridges virtually every one will obtain a different pressure and virtually every gun may have a different chamber dimension and bore. Then we have chokes to control the pattern. So just how big an impact can a few bar have on patterns at 35yards?

Or is it the variation in pressure with every cartridge that gives us a pattern at all? And why plastic wads reportedly give a better pattern than fibre, given plastic wads generally havea better pressure standard deviation sd.

Can gamebore the cartridge manufacture control the patterns to that degree.

Pressure is relevant because for your standard 12 bore, from subsonic to extreme high velocity you tend to get increasing pressure from about 5000psi to 12000psi, and depending on a combination of pressure and what lead you use from soft pure lead to 5% or more antimony results in differing pellet damage.

 

When fired a cartridge develops a peak pressure, if this is above a certain level where lead becomes plastic you end up distorting your perfectly round pellets.

 

More distortion results in wider, poorer patterns caused by an increased number of fliers.

 

The reason steel or tungsten patterns tighter than lead (one is lighter and one is heavier but significantly both are harder) is that they do not deform significantly at pressures at which a shot gun operates and as such more round pellets equals better pattern efficency.

 

Also as bore size gets smaller, pressures tend to run higher (410 runs 11000psi to 14000psi) and if used, soft lead, will always have a worse pattern efficency than the same load in 12 bore, but by using high antimony shot, pattern efficency can be maintained to a certain degree.

 

Plastic wads lower peak pressure especially those with a concertina suppot as well as providing a deformable shot cup which absorbs energy futher protecting the shot - note how much the shot imprints onto the shotcup bottom as the plastic experiences plastic flow before the lead does.

 

As to manufacturers control, certainly within a hundred to two hundred psi they can control by having accurate machines and loading processes.

 

As an example, one well known manufacturer had a load operating at too high a pressure resulting in blown patterns (easy to see on a pattern board), i took a few apart, reduced the powder by 3 grains, put back together and retested to get patterns in order of 20% better. Was speed affected, undoubtedly but they were still supersonic and penetration appeared to be little different at 35 yards.

[alic]

I bought a slab and filled my cartridge bag up for a pigeon and crow day. Back pain got in the way however so I told my dad to grab the cartridge bag and give them a try. 67 pigeon and 21 crows later he proclaimed them to be brilliant but he couldn't undertsand why the cases were not clear and a weird olive colour. Turns out he had taken my clay shooting bag filled with cheddite 28gram 7 1/2s by mistake!

Makes me wonder if it's all marketing nonsense with this heavy diamond shot and fast powder marketing!

I am out this weekend so will see how the new version perform. I remeber using the old clear pigeons on pheasant days years ago,and they seemed to be popular back then.

I went pigeon and dove shooting in South Africa earlier this year ( my first time shooting either)and with the exception of a rogue slab of 32gm 7 used 28gm 7.5 all the time and they dropped like flies out 40 ish yards if I put the pattern in the right place. I am starting to agree with you so no more dark storm 32gm 5 this season I am giving clear pigeon a go. I still think probably too big for partridge.

[rbrowning2]

Pressure is relevant because for your standard 12 bore, from subsonic to extreme high velocity you tend to get increasing pressure from about 5000psi to 12000psi, and depending on a combination of pressure and what lead you use from soft pure lead to 5% or more antimony results in differing pellet damage.

When fired a cartridge develops a peak pressure, if this is above a certain level where lead becomes plastic you end up distorting your perfectly round pellets.

More distortion results in wider, poorer patterns caused by an increased number of fliers.

The reason steel or tungsten patterns tighter than lead (one is lighter and one is heavier but significantly both are harder) is that they do not deform significantly at pressures at which a shot gun operates and as such more round pellets equals better pattern efficency.

Also as bore size gets smaller, pressures tend to run higher (410 runs 11000psi to 14000psi) and if used, soft lead, will always have a worse pattern efficency than the same load in 12 bore, but by using high antimony shot, pattern efficency can be maintained to a certain degree.

Plastic wads lower peak pressure especially those with a concertina suppot as well as providing a deformable shot cup which absorbs energy futher protecting the shot - note how much the shot imprints onto the shotcup bottom as the plastic experiences plastic flow before the lead does.

As to manufacturers control, certainly within a hundred to two hundred psi they can control by having accurate machines and loading processes.

As an example, one well known manufacturer had a load operating at too high a pressure resulting in blown patterns (easy to see on a pattern board), i took a few apart, reduced the powder by 3 grains, put back together and retested to get patterns in order of 20% better. Was speed affected, undoubtedly but they were still supersonic and penetration appeared to be little different at 35 yards.

Thanks for that, so in conclusion low pressure cartridges with high antimony shot will give the best pattern within that gauge.

However we are all told fast is better so the best cartridge will be one with the powder giving minimum pressure for the said velocity.

But their is a minimum pressure that must be achieved for a cartridge to function correctly it's not all about the 1inch pressure otherwise autos would not work. Also generally the assumption is that soft shot kills better or is that now not the case.

I appreciate their is a lot of choice in selecting a plastic wad but fibre is very limited in choice.

 

So if the new clear pigeon is really that much better which have they changed the shot hardness, the powder, the velocity or all?

Anybody cut both the old and new apart yet?

[dougall]

Patterned much more evenly and shot around 60 of each cartridges at pigeons for 57 picked, only winged/runners were with old black carts, not one with clear carts.

fair enough.....

[wymberley]

Thanks for that, so in conclusion low pressure cartridges with high antimony shot will give the best pattern within that gauge.

However we are all told fast is better so the best cartridge will be one with the powder giving minimum pressure for the said velocity.

But their is a minimum pressure that must be achieved for a cartridge to function correctly it's not all about the 1inch pressure otherwise autos would not work. Also generally the assumption is that soft shot kills better or is that now not the case.

I appreciate their is a lot of choice in selecting a plastic wad but fibre is very limited in choice.

 

So if the new clear pigeon is really that much better which have they changed the shot hardness, the powder, the velocity or all?

Anybody cut both the old and new apart yet?

You could argue that there is too much competition amongst makers, They're all trying to outdo each other and have to offer bebefits that others don't. At the moment high velocity and large pellets are in vogue in this respect. Both pointless of course.

Bearing in mind velocities are given as V1 or V2.5 (although some also give the V0 figure), a V0 figure is not excessive at 1600 ft/sec. So how does that compare with 1400. With a No7 at 40 yards the difference of the 200 is reduced to 26.1 (645.2 and 619.1. So who are they trying to kid?

[motty]

Thanks for that, so in conclusion low pressure cartridges with high antimony shot will give the best pattern within that gauge.

However we are all told fast is better so the best cartridge will be one with the powder giving minimum pressure for the said velocity.

But their is a minimum pressure that must be achieved for a cartridge to function correctly it's not all about the 1inch pressure otherwise autos would not work. Also generally the assumption is that soft shot kills better or is that now not the case.

I appreciate their is a lot of choice in selecting a plastic wad but fibre is very limited in choice.

 

So if the new clear pigeon is really that much better which have they changed the shot hardness, the powder, the velocity or all?

Anybody cut both the old and new apart yet?

Harder shot will penetrate better and do more damage.

[rbrowning2]

Harder shot will penetrate better and do more damage.

I always understood that it was better if the shot penetrated sufficiently but then remained within the animal so that all of the pellets energy is then transferred into the quarry. Was or is that not still the problem with steel shot it can pass straight through the bird allowing it to fly on a considerable distance.

[motty]

With any shot on live quarry it is our intention to achieve clean kills. To achieve this, we must hit something vital. If shot can penetrate the whole way through a bird, that must mean that it has had the best chance of striking something vital. Hard shot has a good chance of achieving this. Hard, dense shot has an even better chance of achieving this. That is what makes hevi shot so good.

[Stonepark]

I always understood that it was better if the shot penetrated sufficiently but then remained within the animal so that all of the pellets energy is then transferred into the quarry. Was or is that not still the problem with steel shot it can pass straight through the bird allowing it to fly on a considerable distance.

Lead shot (bird shot) fired from a shotgun does not have sufficent energy at distance when striking tissue to significantly deform (most deformation taking place in the chamber) as in order to deform, plastic flow through a combination of pressure and friction is required and no energy dump takes place (nor associated enlarged wound cavity or hydrostatic shock) on striking the flesh target with bird shot.

 

If striking bone, individual pellets may deform if they retain enough energy but any pellet retaining enough energy no matter if soft or hard lead will 'dump' it's energy as it tries to penetrate bone as friction increases causing plastic flow.

 

At shotgun bird shot pellet energy and velocity down range we can ignore the energy dump on soft tissue due to its complete absence or minimal effects and concentrate on penetration with multiple strikes to cause maximum damage, however once you get to buckshot then the effects do start to become noticible as there is enough retained energy to cause plastic flow on impact with flesh.

 

I also wrote before about myth of retaining bullet versus pass through in some of the air rifle pellet/bullet threads, where it comes down to design of bullet which in order to cause more damage than a pass through needs to be soft fast expansion hollow point design and as we are dealing with round balls we cannot get any of those benefits.

 

The problem with steel and birds flying on is due to insufficent pattern density as whether steel or lead if pellets don't hit anything immediately terminal, the bird through adrenalin will keep flying until it succumbs to shock or bloodloss.

 

Sorry for another missive but hope it helps explain.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Stonepark

[the barbarian]

Just been and picked up 2000 of the "new" clear pigeon cartridges this morning, at £260.00 a thousand they are certainly a bit more expensive than the last lot of 2000 black clear pigeon cartridges I bought, (32grm No6 fibre wads)