The EU and the Irish border

[Rewulf]

 

They had an agreement back as far as the 70s.

 

There have been some amendments to this over time, but they neogtiate with the EU as block, as opposed to having different treaties with Italy, France, Austria etc

Back in the 70s the EU wasnt the political behemoth it is now, it was just the EEC ,a trade agreement/bloc.

So the Swiss had a trade agreement?

What about free movement, customs duty on personal items ?

 

Nothing has changed, no passport needed.

 

The last time I travelled to Dublin from Holyhead ,I think 1991, I had to show my passport.

It may well have been more from a security aspect than a customs one though.

 

At the end of the day, if the EU touts free movement within its borders, thats fine by me.

When we are no longer a member, then that free movement is surely to be decided by the countries affected ?

If Northern and Southern Ireland want to keep the status quo ,as Im sure they will, then what has it to do with Brussels ?

Am I being naive here ?

Do we have to run everything past Junker these days before we do anything border wise, Im surprised we didnt have to ask Brussels if we could have a referendum in the first place !

Can they tell us to give Gibraltar back to the Spanish ?

Its funny how this is a big issue, when bigger border issues are largely ignored by the EU.

A couple of years ago a million+ migrants walked across half of Europe virtually unchallenged, much to the consternation of various EU members.

To this day migrants penetrate EU borders by the thousand..daily.

The EU does nothing about this, despite countries like Italy and Greece screaming for help.

But a border that needs no administration or meddling is the 'issue' ?

[scotslad]

But the thing is, if u have free movement within the EU, unless u have border controls wots to stop anyone free to move to Eire just heading North and getting a ferry over/

Makes a mockery of having border controls elsewhere.

As Eire can't stop anyone from entering from the EU no matter wot them or the UK want.

 

While u could put ur passport controls at the ferry terminals which would make common sense, but I'm sure legally if these folk are in NI they could claim assulym of something (or a really short boat journey) plus it wouldnae be fair on the NI residents having to put up with them either

[Rewulf]

But the thing is, if u have free movement within the EU, unless u have border controls wots to stop anyone free to move to Eire just heading North and getting a ferry over/

Makes a mockery of having border controls elsewhere.

As Eire can't stop anyone from entering from the EU no matter wot them or the UK want.

 

While u could put ur passport controls at the ferry terminals which would make common sense, but I'm sure legally if these folk are in NI they could claim assulym of something (or a really short boat journey) plus it wouldnae be fair on the NI residents having to put up with them either

 

We have border controls elsewhere,and as far as illegal immigration goes, it is a very small deterrent.

There are no 'jungles' in Eire though, and we are really only talking of the transit of UK and Irish/EU people across the north south border.

If in the unlikely event of NI becoming a back door into mainland Britain, we should deal with that as necessary.

But getting to Eire in the first place presents either a ship or plane ride, with ID checks.

What we are trying to avoid are ID checks for the people who wish to cross the border for business or leisure, and have every right to do so.

What Im really trying to ascertain is why this is such a big deal for the EU negotiating team, the Irish dont seem overly concerned or indeed the UK government.

 

The other point of contention is 'the rights of EU citizens living in the UK'

The government has said they will retain 'full rights' apparently the EU says this isnt good enough !

So what exactly do they want ?

They also want an unspecified 'divorce' bill ,possibly as much as £80 billion, plus continued contributions,again unspecified.

Anyone would think they want us to walk away from the table

[Good shot?]

 

Anyone would think they want us to walk away from the table

 

 

And that will need to be the ultimate outcome in my opinion, the alternatives are is a very bad deal for us, in my opinion.

[hawkfanz]

some years ago while we were in eu i traveled to dublin on day trips from holyhead,,,,,no pasport,didnt even have one to check anyway,,so where was border controlls then.

[scotslad]

some years ago while we were in eu i traveled to dublin on day trips from holyhead,,,,,no pasport,didnt even have one to check anyway,,so where was border controlls then.

 

But that's because u travelling within the EU, just the same as u can drive from france to spain or any other eu country without border checks.

 

When the whole Scotland independence was going on they're was talk off the exact same as if Scotland became/stayed an eu state it would be an eu/ non eu border, just the same as Poland and some Baltic states.

 

Wile I do think we'd be better off walking away and not even attempting to play there game, I can't really see any other option other than a 'harder' border.

 

 

There may be no jungle in eire yet but if the cross channel route become even toughe to get throu it might become more of an option.

1 of the biggest problems might be if france play hard ball is stopping the UK border conrols on their side of channel, by time any immigants get passport checked at uk ports I don't know if ur allowed to ship them back to france or not? Could see france refusing to take them even thou that's were they boarded the boat

 

 

Ps As an aside and slightly off topic, wot is the divorce settlement thing all about?

is it for pensions? Seems very cheeky to me considering we're gross cotributers to the EU

[Rewulf]

 

 

There may be no jungle in eire yet but if the cross channel route become even toughe to get throu it might become more of an option.

1 of the biggest problems might be if france play hard ball is stopping the UK border conrols on their side of channel, by time any immigants get passport checked at uk ports I don't know if ur allowed to ship them back to france or not? Could see france refusing to take them even thou that's were they boarded the boat

 

 

Can you not see the problem here ?

How would they get to Eire ?

They could get on on a boat from France I suppose, but then they could do that now and come to the UK.

How did they get to France ?

The EU seems fine and dandy about people from outside of the EU practicing 'free movement' within its borders, people who regularly commit theft, rape and terrorism.

But a remote border on the edge of their domain, that no one is bothered about except them, HAS to be sorted before we can talk 'trade'

 

The divorce settlement is a vague attempt to balance the EUs books for the next few years, while it figures out how to replace the missing gravy supplied by us.

Its a bit like joining a club, finding its not 'you' then getting a membership cancellation bill of 10 years subs.

Its not in the rules, its morally wrong ,and an extraction of urine that beggars belief.

[scotslad]

I do realise that but I would imagine they'd turn a blind eye if any got ashore.

No offence to the irish here, but I would bet they might take a similar stance to france and the rest of Europe and turn a blind eye as long as there not wanting to stay in there country.

Like u say how do they get to france?

Everyone wants to ignore it as long as there heading elsewhere and far easier and cheaper if there happy to had elsewhere

[ordnance]

 

 

And that will need to be the ultimate outcome in my opinion, the alternatives are is a very bad deal for us, in my opinion.

What about threatening to leave NATO and letting them sort out their own defence without the UKs nuclear umbrella, that could get their attention.

Edited September 1, 2017 by ordnance

[Dr D]

The issue of the Irish border has very little if anything to do with illegal migration. It's about Irish and UK citizens movement within the CTA and trade. People shouldnt buy in to the nonsense of the Calais issue somehow transfering to the Dundalk Newry border. It just rubbish being spouted.

[mossberg-operator]

Rewulf:

The other point of contention is 'the rights of EU citizens living in the UK'

The government has said they will retain 'full rights' apparently the EU says this isnt good enough !

So what exactly do they want ?

Me: That is not true. Currently UK offer gives the same rights as any non EU citizen got in the UK, which is not much. Also, there is no legal guarantee for not changing this after UK left the EU, hence the issue regarding EU court overseeing this or not. EU has offered that UK citizens will have the same rights as they have in Europe at the moment, the UK counter offer is less than that. Pls check out the "3 million" campaign group for more, better information. I'm an EU citizen by the way.

Edited September 2, 2017 by mossberg-operator

[Rewulf]

Rewulf:

The other point of contention is 'the rights of EU citizens living in the UK'

The government has said they will retain 'full rights' apparently the EU says this isnt good enough !

So what exactly do they want ?

Me: That is not true. Currently UK offer gives the same rights as any non EU citizen got in the UK, which is not much. Also, there is no legal guarantee for not changing this after UK left the EU, hence the issue regarding EU court overseeing this or not. EU has offered that UK citizens will have the same rights as they have in Europe at the moment, the UK counter offer is less than that. Pls check out the "3 million" campaign group for more, better information. I'm an EU citizen by the way.

 

So are you saying that whatever promises the UK government makes regarding your status, may not be honoured ?

You have read this I presume

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/safeguarding-the-position-of-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-and-uk-nationals-in-the-eu/the-united-kingdoms-exit-from-the-european-union-safeguarding-the-position-of-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk-and-uk-nationals-living-in-the-eu

 

It says as long as the EU respects British citizens living abroad, then we will do likewise.

They will get all the benefits and rights they get now, but they have to apply for permanent residency, you say that is 'not much'

It sounds like you dont trust the words of government in the country you have chosen to live in ?

 

The 3 million group are having a big march on London next week, so we shall see what their issues are,from what Ive read, they dont seem happy about the clarity of their position, personally I think the blame for that lies firmly at the EUs door, in that they are more interested in their financial settlement than anything else.

 

Lastly you describe yourself as an EU citizen, your country of origin seems irrelevant ?

Its like someone from Japan saying Im from Asia !

A person from Wales, says he is Welsh, someone from France ,should say he is French, will you still be an EU citizen when the UK is out of the EU, and you have chosen to make your life here?

[JohnfromUK]

 

.... personally I think the blame for that lies firmly at the EUs door, in that they are more interested in their financial settlement than anything else.

 

You are right - and the underlying reason is that they are scared that others will follow unless they are seen to be handing out a 'severe punishment' to the UK for daring to rock their fairytale existence. We are to be handed a big 'fine' to make sure that any others thinking of leaving are put off.

 

Oh - and for the record I'm a British citizen - specifically English - born and always resident in England.

[Rewulf]

You are right - and the underlying reason is that they are scared that others will follow unless they are seen to be handing out a 'severe punishment' to the UK for daring to rock their fairytale existence. We are to be handed a big 'fine' to make sure that any others thinking of leaving are put off.

 

Oh - and for the record I'm a British citizen - specifically English - born and always resident in England.

 

They are not scared.. They are terrified that Brexit will be a success for us.

They will do any and all underhand tricks to prevent a clean successful break for us.. and them.

After all, is that not the the job of the EU to look after the citizens of Europe including us ?

Or as is becoming apparent to even the most sceptical, they are not really bothered about the people, but more about political and financial power ?

A power they are reluctant to let go, unelected for, and a power they are finding difficult to hold on to, as the experiment starts to unravel.

 

They bully and cajole countries into financial traps, currency that has wrecked economies, immigration quotas that they do not want, laws they do not need, cause internal strife by meddling in sovereign national politics and borders, amongst other things that have NOTHING to do with them.

All whilst making the people of Europe believe that we NEED them to do this, we do not.

Once the UK is free from them, others will follow.

[TriBsa]

 

They are not scared.. They are terrified that Brexit will be a success for us.

They will do any and all underhand tricks to prevent a clean successful break for us.. and them.

After all, is that not the the job of the EU to look after the citizens of Europe including us ?

Or as is becoming apparent to even the most sceptical, they are not really bothered about the people, but more about political and financial power ?

A power they are reluctant to let go, unelected for, and a power they are finding difficult to hold on to, as the experiment starts to unravel.

 

They bully and cajole countries into financial traps, currency that has wrecked economies, immigration quotas that they do not want, laws they do not need, cause internal strife by meddling in sovereign national politics and borders, amongst other things that have NOTHING to do with them.

All whilst making the people of Europe believe that we NEED them to do this, we do not.

Once the UK is free from them, others will follow.

 

Unfortunately, the majority of our politicians seem to be cut from the same cloth as the EU cabal. Brexit was not won by our political class, but in spite of them. The people's will prevailed, but now Brexit is in the hands of the same political establishment who are in the main pro EU. Don't hold your breath if you expect a return to sanity and traditional values. The PC Liberal Multiculturalism that infects parliament and the civil service will remain.

[mossberg-operator]

So are you saying that whatever promises the UK government makes regarding your status, may not be honoured ?

You have read this I presume

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/safeguarding-the-position-of-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-and-uk-nationals-in-the-eu/the-united-kingdoms-exit-from-the-european-union-safeguarding-the-position-of-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk-and-uk-nationals-living-in-the-eu

 

It says as long as the EU respects British citizens living abroad, then we will do likewise.

They will get all the benefits and rights they get now, but they have to apply for permanent residency, you say that is 'not much'

It sounds like you dont trust the words of government in the country you have chosen to live in ?

 

The 3 million group are having a big march on London next week, so we shall see what their issues are,from what Ive read, they dont seem happy about the clarity of their position, personally I think the blame for that lies firmly at the EUs door, in that they are more interested in their financial settlement than anything else.

 

Lastly you describe yourself as an EU citizen, your country of origin seems irrelevant ?

Its like someone from Japan saying Im from Asia !

A person from Wales, says he is Welsh, someone from France ,should say he is French, will you still be an EU citizen when the UK is out of the EU, and you have chosen to make your life here?

I don't trust politicans anymore. You still don't understand the difference between the EU offer on citizens rights and the UK counteroffer. Which is less. If they were the same that chapter would be closed in the negotiations.... FYI I'm hungarian origin, considering myself as an EU citizen. In my mind we are all Europeans. .

[AVB]

I don't trust politicans anymore. You still don't understand the difference between the EU offer on citizens rights and the UK counteroffer. Which is less. If they were the same that chapter would be closed in the negotiations.... FYI I'm hungarian origin, considering myself as an EU citizen. In my mind we are all Europeans. .

 

Can you highlight the differences in the EU Offer vs the UK offer. I was not aware of the EU offer. Like most things they seem to be just rejecting the UK proposals out of hand without proposing anything themselves. I am happy to be be corrected.

[mossberg-operator]

Can you highlight the differences in the EU Offer vs the UK offer. I was not aware of the EU offer. Like most things they seem to be just rejecting the UK proposals out of hand without proposing anything themselves. I am happy to be be corrected.

 

EU offer predates the UK offer. Everything remains the same to all UK citizens already living in Europe amd all EU citizens living in the UK. No settled status, no registering, no 5 yr waiting period, to achieve settled status, no nothing. No new conditions... There is a difference...

[AVB]

EU offer predates the UK offer. Everything remains the same to all UK citizens already living in Europe amd all EU citizens living in the UK. No settled status, no registering, no 5 yr waiting period, to achieve settled status, no nothing. No new conditions... There is a difference...

Ah you mean exactly as it is today? People still entitled to benefits etc. So ignoring the FACT that the British people voted to leave.

[Rewulf]

I don't trust politicans anymore. You still don't understand the difference between the EU offer on citizens rights and the UK counteroffer. Which is less. If they were the same that chapter would be closed in the negotiations.... FYI I'm hungarian origin, considering myself as an EU citizen. In my mind we are all Europeans. .

 

I dont trust politicians either, especially ones that are unelected, meddle in things that have nothing to do with them, cannot keep proper account of the money they spend, are even now, with a massive budget black hole looming, are spending nearly a billion euros on new buildings for themselves they dont even need.

Politicians that offer nothing back for their wages, except threats when a country doesnt do as they say.

 

I remember you from past discussions about Brexit, you have been in the UK around 20 years I believe ?

You have contributed, and made this country your home, and you will be fully entitled to stay as long as you wish, I really dont see what your fear is.

Yes we are all Europeans, but your heritage is your heritage, good ,bad or ugly.

I am English ,you are Hungarian, if you want to think of yourself as just a citizen of the EU, that up to you, but can you not see that is what they want ?

[Rewulf]

Ah you mean exactly as it is today? People still entitled to benefits etc. So ignoring the FACT that the British people voted to leave.

 

Up until March 2019 (estimated) it is exactly the same, benefits the whole package.

If you have already done your 5 years ,then you will be granted settled status straight away, again full benefits.

If you arrive just before we formally leave, you have to do the 5 years, but again full benefits whilst waiting.

Its a very generous offer in my mind, but to the EU its not good enough, they literally want continued free movement, this cant happen, as we know, otherwise one of the main points of of Brexit is useless.

The 3 points that the EU negotiators stress are the most important are.

1. The divorce bill - Something leavers are going to be very annoyed about if its anything like the figures being touted.

2. Rights of EU citizens in the UK - as above

3. Irish border- point of this thread, why is it a problem? And surely something for us to sort out with Eire.

I believe the EU wants these 3 things to cause the talks to collapse, or stall , hoping for regime change in the UK .

Their continued petulance and insults to further inflame negotiations, they want us to walk.

I think Davis and his team are playing an excellent game so far TBH.

[mossberg-operator]

Ah you mean exactly as it is today? People still entitled to benefits etc. So ignoring the FACT that the British people voted to leave.

For the people who already made home, yes. I've been paying lots of tax in this country, so I think I should have the same rights as anyone else. That fact that people voted leave, doesn't mean that I should be stripped from the access of NHS, od sick pay, or else. IMHO. After the cut off date, what the law gonna be for new people wanna come in is up for the politicans and the negotiations between the EU -UK.

[mossberg-operator]

I dont trust politicians either, especially ones that are unelected, meddle in things that have nothing to do with them, cannot keep proper account of the money they spend, are even now, with a massive budget black hole looming, are spending nearly a billion euros on new buildings for themselves they dont even need.

Politicians that offer nothing back for their wages, except threats when a country doesnt do as they say.

 

I remember you from past discussions about Brexit, you have been in the UK around 20 years I believe ?

You have contributed, and made this country your home, and you will be fully entitled to stay as long as you wish, I really dont see what your fear is.

Yes we are all Europeans, but your heritage is your heritage, good ,bad or ugly.

I am English ,you are Hungarian, if you want to think of yourself as just a citizen of the EU, that up to you, but can you not see that is what they want ?

. We can have different opinions, this is called democracy. Almost 20 yrs, yes. One of my issues is the scaremongering against us. We are called migrants, UK citizens living in for example Spain called ex pats (hope I write this right). We have the feeling that we are not welcome anymore. Not a good feeling. This is my home. Also, let me share a personnal issue that Brexit might cause to me. My grandparents are still alive abroad (91,86), my mother looks after them. (Not in a care home!) The plan was once they are gone, She will come and live with us, spending time with grandchild or I will look after her once She gonna be at that stage. With the new plans I might not be able to do this. Edited September 6, 2017 by mossberg-operator

[mossberg-operator]

By the way, I'm full time employed, same company for 13+ yrs, not on benefits, never been, not in social housing....

[scotslad]

Must admit I think ur being urealistic over the eire border.

The EU are trying to be difficult but at the same time they can't make special arrangements or let 2 countries suit themselves, I doubt many refugee's come into EU throu the Baltic states so could Poland/Lithunania and Ukraine all operate a open border if it suited them?

When Scotland had its referendum many of u were in favour of rebuilding hadrains wall never mind just a border check

 

I really can't see there being much of an option just the same as it will be at Gibralta.

 

Look I agree with most of wot ur saying unfortunately its in the Eu's interest to make brexit a disaster and Westminste/parlimentr (voters at last election) are making it very likely it will be a disaster.

Getting politicains to see this throu is like asking turkeys to vote on an extra christmas

 

 

While it may be ackward for u Mossberg, at the moment u have the same rights as anyone else in UK so don't really see wot the difference is as that won't change.

as for ur mother etc, sadly that's just life, there's not a lot u can do about it other than get on with it.

I'm sure many on here would like to immigrate to various countries (Oz,NZ or USA) but know ey can't because of visa's or those that do/have know they have to make sacrifces reguarding friends and family.

I'm sure it will end up the same for any English living abroad they won't be able to bring family out too them either, many of them are retired