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9 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

The reason it's been agreed is there are far more mps in Westminster who want to go against democracy and keep us in, The conservatives are on a sticky wicket and if they don't reach a compromise The whole party will fall apart, leaving the door open to the remaineacs to take over completely undoing brexit.

Before the ref, these MPs were the bastion of sovereignty we needed to hand decision making to, instead of the EU politicians that were against democracy and who wanted to keep us in. 

Is there nobody who isn't part of the EU conspiracy (apart from Pigeon Watch and The Express of course)? 

8 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Amen to this, the EUs going down like a lead balloon.

All those businesses moving to Europe! Like rats jumping on board a sinking ships. 

What is the explanation on the Express for why Brexit champion David Davis feels its worth offering £40bn to get a trade deal? And for why BMW haven't come riding to our rescue yet? Is it all just "Conspiracy!" still?

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1 hour ago, Granett said:

Before the ref, these MPs were the bastion of sovereignty we needed to hand decision making to, instead of the EU politicians that were against democracy and who wanted to keep us in. 

Is there nobody who isn't part of the EU conspiracy (apart from Pigeon Watch and The Express of course)? 

All those businesses moving to Europe! Like rats jumping on board a sinking ships. 

What is the explanation on the Express for why Brexit champion David Davis feels its worth offering £40bn to get a trade deal? And for why BMW haven't come riding to our rescue yet? Is it all just "Conspiracy!" still?

I never mentioned a conspiracy, I also never said the conservatives  were the bastions of hope either, although not a bad analogy compared to the EU, to be fair, I'd take my chances with the devil over that lot ?.

If I could chose I'd have Nigel Farage lead negotiations personally but that's just my opinion, I've stated that from the start, he's Definitely not part of your conspiracy.

As for your business's moving and doom and gloom question, that' a load of nonsense, the UK economy is still doing better than the prediction for if we'd voted to stay let alone, what the remaniacs predicted would happen if we dared vote leave, no ww3 either. 

Most of any harm that has been done is in fact due to the remoaners in Westminster who are digging their heals in every step of the way against the democratic will of the UK, this has caused uncertainty, if we just get on with it and walk away, business will know where we stand and our economy will flourish.

Out of curiosity, why do you want to remain so badly, I can understand people working in certain specific areas of banking who would want to for their own personal gain, but the country as a whole is going to be better off.

 

Edited by 12gauge82
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8 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

Strange how we are being told that if we still want their trade etc we have to pay them out, why dont we just flip it on its head and charge them for conning us all these years 

Spot on, not to mention all the projects and infrastructure we've paid for over the years and will continue to be used for years to come, we should bill them for that, it'd make their bill look like penny's.

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12 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

If anyone is interested, a petition to stop TAX payers money being used to settle an EU divorce bill. Sign it or don't, someone suggested it should have it's own thread so here it is. 

Feel free to share on other social media/forums any of you may use.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/201568

Done.

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31 minutes ago, Paul1440 said:

Goldman sachs confirmed Paris and Frankfurt as their operation Hubs. 

Ah well.. Least their UK employees will get jobs crop picking.:crazy:

Mr Sachs has also continued to invest in London and is planning to fill new premises there to, although he's paid rent in Frankfurt it'll be interesting to see if he actually uses it after brexit, it will obviously depend on what happens with passporting ect. 

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1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

I never mentioned a conspiracy, I also never said the conservatives  were the bastions of hope either, although not a bad analogy compared to the EU, to be fair, I'd take my chances with the devil over that lot ?.

If I could chose I'd have Nigel Farage lead negotiations personally but that's just my opinion, I've stated that from the start, he's Definitely not part of your conspiracy.

As for your business's moving and doom and gloom question, that' a load of nonsense, the UK economy is still doing better than the prediction for if we'd voted to stay let alone, what the remaniacs predicted would happen if we dared vote leave, no ww3 either. 

Most of any harm that has been done is in fact due to the remoaners in Westminster who are digging their heals in every step of the way against the democratic will of the UK, this has caused uncertainty, if we just get on with it and walk away, business will know where we stand and our economy will flourish.

Out of curiosity, why do you want to remain so badly, I can understand people working in certain specific areas of banking who would want to for their own personal gain, but the country as a whole is going to be better off.

 

Nobody predicted WWIII, and we haven't left yet, so who's to know where the financial slump will bottom out? In terms of the country being better off, that's contrary to all expert evidence, and all available stats, so, if you don't believe the stats and the experts are part of that Anti-Brexit conspiracy, why do you think they are in such consensus? What source are you relying on for your contrary belief?

On Farage, I'm surprised, given that your fingers are constantly crossed for a Hard Brexit. Farage after all is one of that majority of prominent Leave campaigners (and Brexit voters by extrapolation) well known for wanting a soft Brexit.

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market" - Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the Market" - Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing" - Nigel Farage, Ukip leader

"The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive for some business people" - Matthew Elliot, Vote Leave chief executive

"Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK" - Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

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Without the UK's money the EU will struggle financially, there are already rumblings of discontent in other member states in Euroland....why would businesses want to go there, with the future of the EU uncertain?

Call their bluff, what really have we got to lose?

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4 minutes ago, Granett said:

Nobody predicted WWIII, and we haven't left yet, so who's to know where the financial slump will bottom out? In terms of the country being better off, that's contrary to all expert evidence, and all available stats, so, if you don't believe the stats and the experts are part of that Anti-Brexit conspiracy, why do you think they are in such consensus? What source are you relying on for your contrary belief?

On Farage, I'm surprised, given that your fingers are constantly crossed for a Hard Brexit. Farage after all is one of that majority of prominent Leave campaigners (and Brexit voters by extrapolation) well known for wanting a soft Brexit.

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market" - Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the Market" - Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing" - Nigel Farage, Ukip leader

"The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive for some business people" - Matthew Elliot, Vote Leave chief executive

"Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK" - Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/09/is-david-cameron-right-leaving-eu-brexit-increase-risk-war

Here' a link about my ww3 comment, I want a hard Brexit because with all the remain supporting MPs in Westminster, I don' trust them to truly take us out of Europe, I'd be more than happy to trade with the EU as a free and Sovereign country but believe a hard brexit will insure the clean break this country needs to truly leave the EU.

As for my predictions for the economy, it's fact that it' doing better than the predictions the bank of England made before the vote for if we'd voted remain, let alone leave.

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Good gosh Granett, that's a raft of interesting quotations, from some prominent leave campaigners.

12gauge12: I do agree with you on one thing there are a lot of politicians (not all) who are very untrustworthy, and yes there may well be some who have two faces.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexiteer-john-redwood-tells-investors-to-pull-money-out-of-the-uk-2017-11  (well aware that this is probably very exaggerated!)

I still believe there is no conspiracy theory, Brexit will happen, and we the taxpayer will pay a fair wack for it.  I also believe the final Brexit deal will leave most of the population both the leave and remain voters unhappy with what the politicians decide. I also think politicians will make party policies relevant to where they think votes can be gained from opposition parties in this area, and this will include some partial or possibly total of  reversal/weakening of whatever Brexit ends up being.

Cheers

Aled

NB: After slagging off politicians its worth noting though that on a recent medically related issue both my MP and AM, as well as the Welsh Govt minister I dealt with gave me a fair hearing and replied professionally and honestly, and left the door wide open for me to discuss things further with them. I do appreciate that!  

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1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/09/is-david-cameron-right-leaving-eu-brexit-increase-risk-war

Here' a link about my ww3 comment, I want a hard Brexit because with all the remain supporting MPs in Westminster, I don' trust them to truly take us out of Europe, I'd be more than happy to trade with the EU as a free and Sovereign country but believe a hard brexit will insure the clean break this country needs to truly leave the EU.

As for my predictions for the economy, it's fact that it' doing better than the predictions the bank of England made before the vote for if we'd voted remain, let alone leave.

 On WWIII, saying, "If you buy 2 lottery tickets you improve your chances" is not the same as saying you'll definitely win the jackpot.

On the economy, I'm not sure where you're getting your two points of reference - can you point me towards the BOE prediction and the current assessment that is better? 

On sovereignty, don't forget, it was only ever a "feeling" we didn't have it (as acknowledged in the Brexit team's white paper). And the terms of the final trade deal are going to look a lot like the same perceived curtailment of sovereignty Brexit was supposed to stop.

Definitely interesting views and a new openness (and civility) to them here on PW which is great to see. 

Edited by Granett
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22 minutes ago, Granett said:

 On WWIII, saying, "If you buy 2 lottery tickets you improve your chances" is not the same as saying you'll definitely win the jackpot.

On the economy, I'm not sure where you're getting your two points of reference - can you point me towards the BOE prediction and the current assessment that is better? 

On sovereignty, don't forget, it was only ever a "feeling" we didn't have it (as acknowledged in the Brexit team's white paper). And the terms of the final trade deal are going to look a lot like the same perceived curtailment of sovereignty Brexit was supposed to stop.

Definitely interesting views and a new openness (and civility) to them here on PW which is great to see. 

The bank BOE are certainly not going to contradict themselves surely ?
The problem is, if you get most of your news from the guardian,indy and Beeb, ie ,the remain biased media, they only report the bad things about Brexit, ask yourself, when have you read anything in these outlets of the good parts of Brexit ?
A more cynical reader of these tomes might think there isnt any ?

There was only a 'feeling' we didnt have sovereignty ?
So EU law didnt supercede UK law? Then why are we having to draft UK laws back in on March 2019 ?
Is that not regaining sovereignty ?

sovereignty
ˈsɒvrɪnti/
noun
 
  • the authority of a state to govern itself or another state.
    "national sovereignty"
    synonyms: autonomy, independence, self-government, self-rule, home rule, self-legislation, self-determination, non-alignment, freedom
    "full West German sovereignty was achieved in 1955"
       
  • a self-governing state.
    plural noun: sovereignties
     
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-36956418

I'm struggling to find sources for my claims to the economy and except my stateent  may have been wrong on that point, I'm not sure, but here is a BBC article showing how the economy is performing far better than the predictions, it also shows that most of the areas where the economy is not performing so well, has been caused due to the uncertainty of this half in half out approach, I believe we should tell the EU what we want if we are to continue buying their goods, if they refuse we should make a clean break, anything we need to buy from them we could then buy under WTO rules and considering the fact if we bought all our goods currently under WTO we'd still be millions week better off than now and the fact we buy 70 billion more from the EU than they buy from us annually, we can't lose.

Edited by 12gauge82
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5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

 the fact if we bought all our goods currently under WTO we'd still be millions week better off than now and the fact we buy 70 billion more from the EU than they buy from us annually, we can't lose.

Hi 12gauge12 could you follow this up with some sources? I am interested in where this has come from?

Thanks

Aled

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1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

The problem is, if you get most of your news from the guardian,indy and Beeb, ie ,the remain biased media, they only report the bad things about Brexit, ask yourself, when have you read anything in these outlets of the good parts of Brexit ?
A more cynical reader of these tomes might think there isnt any? 

The Sun, the Times, the Telegraph, Forbes, and and Reuters. I think all of those have also been dismissed here as part of the biased/conspirator anti Brexit cohort. 

I'm not certain there's any press left which PW considers even-handed other than that blog funded by Arron Banks, the Daily Express and the Mail. 

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41 minutes ago, Granett said:

The Sun, the Times, the Telegraph, Forbes, and and Reuters. I think all of those have also been dismissed here as part of the biased/conspirator anti Brexit cohort. 

I'm not certain there's any press left which PW considers even-handed other than that blog funded by Arron Banks, the Daily Express and the Mail. 

No, there is no press that is even handed, some for, and some against, oh for an unbiased media !
But then people forget, the media is a business, not a public service, and their business aims will be pushed, whatever that may be..

But I digress, if you think the guardian gives a fair, balanced view of  Brexit and the EU, thats fine, and you are entitled to your opinion.
Personally I dont think the express gives a balanced opinion either, but I dont base my pro leave thinking on what I read in the papers, or from what I watch on TV.

Im not saying you base your beliefs on what you read or watch, but you seem particularly entrenched in that 'Weve got it all wrong' kind of thinking.
Again thats your prerogative .

A good bit of reading on the subject is Dan Hannans ,Why Vote Leave, written before the referendum, I know hes biased toward leave , but it gives an idea of why he is that way inclined, and could, maybe, let you see why people like me think this way.

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10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

No, there is no press that is even handed, some for, and some against, oh for an unbiased media !
But then people forget, the media is a business, not a public service, and their business aims will be pushed, whatever that may be..

But I digress, if you think the guardian gives a fair, balanced view of  Brexit and the EU, thats fine, and you are entitled to your opinion.
Personally I dont think the express gives a balanced opinion either, but I dont base my pro leave thinking on what I read in the papers, or from what I watch on TV.

Im not saying you base your beliefs on what you read or watch, but you seem particularly entrenched in that 'Weve got it all wrong' kind of thinking.
Again thats your prerogative .

A good bit of reading on the subject is Dan Hannans ,Why Vote Leave, written before the referendum, I know hes biased toward leave , but it gives an idea of why he is that way inclined, and could, maybe, let you see why people like me think this way.

You'll concede that anything that isn't pro Brexit or from the Express gets dismissed on here as anti Brexit bias. No reason is ever given for why the source is biased, so it has to be assumed the thinking is it's some sort of conspiracy. 

Just like you, I don't let any one source dictate my view, but in terms of a debate, where one view is shared by an overwhelming majority of experts, and is being borne out by the numbers, and the other is largely restricted to the most populist two newspapers in the UK, something looks odd. 

A refusal to acknowledge that, or to try and dismiss anything in any other paper lends itself to criticism of blinkeredness. 

Hannan is a consummate populist demagogue. Which of his arguments most persuaded you?

Just to follow up on the economy point. Why did John Redwood, arch Brexiteer, recommend to his investor chums to put money into Europe rather than the UK, if not for a little disaster capitalism profiteering? 

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8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:


But then people forget, the media is a business, not a public service, and their business aims will be pushed, whatever that may be..

.

That's very true Rewulf. I get electronic access to both The Guardian and the Telegraph.  On more than one occasion I've been surprised at comments made in the Telegraph that support aspects of the Brexit process such as Remaining in the Customs Union, Single Market etc. The Guardian has also produced some interesting articles on why people in certain communities voted leave. Finally I take most of what I read in the press with a pinch of salt, since I heard a well known rugby player was unable to train due to an slight injury......It wasn't he had the mother of all hangover I know I'd been on the beer with him!

Cheers

Aled

 

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20 minutes ago, Granett said:

You'll concede that anything that isn't pro Brexit or from the Express gets dismissed on here as anti Brexit bias. No reason is ever given for why the source is biased, so it has to be assumed the thinking is it's some sort of conspiracy.

Of course it is ,this is a shooting forum, with a membership that is mostly right wing, working class 'blokes' 
If there were labour supporters before, the last years of labour rule put paid to that!
Plus to talk of bias and conspiracy, its a matter of opinion, you think the express is biased,I think the guardian is biased.
 

Just like you, I don't let any one source dictate my view, but in terms of a debate, where one view is shared by an overwhelming majority of experts, and is being borne out by the numbers, and the other is largely restricted to the most populist two newspapers in the UK, something looks odd. 

Experts who work for whom ? Published in which media outlets?
Im sure leave could field just as many 'experts'

A refusal to acknowledge that, or to try and dismiss anything in any other paper lends itself to criticism of blinkeredness. 

As above.

Hannan is a consummate populist demagogue. Which of his arguments most persuaded you?

 

demagogue
ˈdɛməɡɒɡ/
noun
 
  1.  
    • (in ancient Greece and Rome) a leader or orator who espoused the cause of the common people.
      "the Athenian demagogues had definite and valuable functions within the state"
       

Just to follow up on the economy point. Why did John Redwood, arch Brexiteer, recommend to his investor chums to put money into Europe rather than the UK, if not for a little disaster capitalism profiteering? 

The fact that Hannan is asking to be sacked was a bit of a draw to be honest, as was Farage.
Where someone is willing to inconvenience themselves for their cause, usually denotes honesty in this world of liars.

Redwood on the other hand is one who will go whichever way the wind blows.

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3 hours ago, Aled said:

Hi 12gauge12 could you follow this up with some sources? I am interested in where this has come from?

Thanks

Aled

I've watched several interviews where theses sorts of numbers were used, if they weren't true they'd have been jumped on by the anti Brexit panel, I have found some assessments on line which back up what I say but they were in pdf format that I can' get my phone to put on here, I did find this which shows how some of what I said is right https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/80147/putting-tariffs-uk-trade-‘would-cost-eu-£8bn-more’

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