Pigeonshooter22 Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) My first cocker and bought him to train myself. Laughed at by my other half who owns a lab, who only likes labs. I work his lab for him throughout the season. I know they're totally different but always loved cockers and their willingness to work, wanted one for years and when we moved out I had to go for it. I bought him to pick up when birds fall deep in cover etc on the shoots I pick up on, as our lab's to big to go into the cover a spaniel easily could and they could make a good team. Plus he'll hopefully be useful pushing the birds back on our shoot next season. Hes 5 months soon, a chunky dog. Hes very confident for a pup. Alot of FTCH lines however not over 'red' pedigree as he'll also be a indoor pet and only really worked a couple of times a week not daily. All was going well. Coming to call, sitting, started teaching stay, started using the whistle 2 weeks ago and would do a 180 degrees turn as SOON as I blew it. I work away occasionally so hes been to a couple of game fairs, where hes had lovely comments on him and his behavior. I knew he'd go into a naughty stage at some point. He comes with us feeding the birds and never leaves me side. A week or so later, only recently, if hes on a walk on a VERY strong scent of something he'll ignore the whistle and me, even if i walk away and leave him he'll still carry on. He's only done it twice but i'm getting worried he'll carry on doing it more and more. After a couple of minutes he'll come back to me with his tail between his legs as I've been shouting/whistling like mad for him and he knows he should come back. Hes done it twice now in 2 days. Do I tell him off, will that put him off coming back? or reward, but will that reward him for coming back a few minutes later than called? Hes also started not bringing anything back if we play fetch, hes eager to fetch a puppy dummy (we only do this a couple of times a week for a short period, of a couple of throws) he'll run like a bat out of hell, pick it up and then run to my left or right and again, totally ignore me. Doesn't care if i leave him, walk off, walk backwards, run backwards out of sight. I try and make it all fun, exciting etc. He'll eventually come but will drop it a couple of foot away. I don't think hes bored and is over excited, I know they have short attention spans. Maybe I should leave retrieving until hes older? I was told by a couple of people to not walking him and only training him when hes out the cage so he doesn't learn to self hunt but hes a pet too so lives in the house so hes use to going for walks etc with our other dog, however I want him to be a good worker and if walks ruin that i'll have to stop walking him and only bring him out to train. I believe a lot of people do this but it would be a shame. Really feel down about it, I know hes a pup and I shouldn't ask too much but the other half is laughing saying he told me to get a lab etc etc. I really want to prove to him I can do it and surely coming back when hes told and bringing back a dummy/ball once a week at a short distance isn't to much, or am i wrong? Any help will be hugely appreciated, please no nasty comments. Maybe i'm to soft, he lives a lovely spoilt life. I don't know! Edited October 2, 2017 by Pigeonshooter22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 You are doing far too much with the dog. Let him be a puppy. Sit and stay is all you need at this stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeonshooter22 Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) You are doing far too much with the dog. Let him be a puppy. Sit and stay is all you need at this stage. He only does stay as he knows to stay for his food and we do stay work as it gets his brain working on a late evening every so often for a bit of cheese in the house. He has puppy friends he plays with on a daily basis at my work. He does some fetch work once a week for no more than 10 minutes which is all fun games and gets 3 short walks a day at different places (no training involved just free running around a few fields) with our lab, when he occasionally decides he won't come back. So I shouldn't walk him? As surely coming back is just the basics, if i let him be a puppy I just have to let him run off and ignore me? The retrieving part doesn't worry me half as much as him not coming back I don't want him to learn to do that. If i didn't walk him it wouldn't be a problem I guess. Thanks JDog Edited October 2, 2017 by Pigeonshooter22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 You are doing far too much with the dog. Let him be a puppy. Sit and stay is all you need at this stage. Nah, you've missed the first 3 important stages, recall,recall, recall. Do nothing with the dog until it fully understands all 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeonshooter22 Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) Nah, you've missed the first 3 important stages, recall,recall, recall. Do nothing with the dog until it fully understands all 3. Thank you - will constantly work on that recall. He has been SO good with recall until now, crazily good really. Even better than our 4yr old lab. Would you carry on using the whistle or stop using the whistle, and call instead? Hes come back to the whistle every single time bar the last 2 days and hes ignored it literally twice for a couple of minutes then come back when hes realized. It probably isn't anything big to worry about but I don't want to do anything wrong and ruin him for the future. Edited October 2, 2017 by Pigeonshooter22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 I agree with both the above replies. I would be doing very short walks with it to get t walking to heel but is unlikely u will be able to walk both dog together unles sur lab is spot on doing heel wotk. Also don't let the dog free run in area where there is a lot of scent, even when u get more advanced and start basic hunting if the ground is 'gamey' u'd walk the game off first before u start training I'd also use meal times for re inforcing the recall and sit commands both with whistle, voice and hand Finally and quite importantly never give a command u expect to be ignored or u can't enforce. If ur dogs recall is dodgy and hes running wrong direction, sniffing, peeing etc wait or get his attention then recall. If he ignores a command u then have to decide does he know the command? Did he hear it? Or is he disobeying u, u either then ignore it and work on it in the future or do something about it if u can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Don't play a tune on your whistle, if it's ignored then he's testing you, he wants you to either chase him or he's just being a teenager. Our lab was ace on recall a few weeks ago, he would even drop a lamb **** like a hot coal and come in like an exocet. But now he has a habit of just glancing back and ignoring you. So it back to basics, start short and work back. Someone said to me a while back, "He will always be smarter than me" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 I sometimes have same problem, recall seems to diminish from time to time. You just have to get back in the saddle and work it out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michufc Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Don't worry my 5 year old spaniel has just decided to take off the other Day never done it before. Just don't keep blowing the whistle if he has ignored it get after him let him no that's not ok to ignore him. As he is so young free running is definitely not a good thing keeping him really close will be worth wile. I listened to others who said work on heel last and trust me that's a mistake which I am still paying for. Cockers are very clever dogs but one of mine I couldn't give her a inch else she went straight into deaf mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeonshooter22 Posted October 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) Thanks everyone! Really appreciate all the comments. I think I know the problem.. hes never humped anything but last night he suddenly started really humping his teddy, It didn't seem excitment eiher, did make me laugh about it as he fell off the chair backwards doing so! This morning I gave him a belly rub, as i have done since i got him, well he started humping my hand Yesterday and this morning he also suddenly started paying a lot of attention to our lab bitch as well (she was spayed 2 years ago) which he has never done before, sniffing her constantly. Sounds daft, but can puberty distract them? I'm guessing it can.. as hes suddenly changed over 2 days and now this happened yesterday evening makes sense maybe why he ran off for a short period and came back, and has been distracted bringing anything back. Done some recall this morning, he was excellent, a 180 degree turn as soon as the whistle blew and gave him a bit of sausage when he got back to me. I also found a tennis ball in my pocket and he bought it straight back to me twice which was good. Going to keep practicing with that recall. Just don't want to ruin him etc so really appreciate all the comments. Don't worry my 5 year old spaniel has just decided to take off the other Day never done it before. Just don't keep blowing the whistle if he has ignored it get after him let him no that's not ok to ignore him. As he is so young free running is definitely not a good thing keeping him really close will be worth wile. I listened to others who said work on heel last and trust me that's a mistake which I am still paying for. Cockers are very clever dogs but one of mine I couldn't give her a inch else she went straight into deaf mode. I was told to not work on heel but we have another dog, a lab that didn't do any heel work as a pup as everyone said do that later on and even though we done a lot after a year, 4 years later her heel is awful, constantly pulls. His heel work is spot on at 5 months because he doesn't know how to pull yet and hasn't, so think i'll keep up with that as i always said I didn't want a dog that pulled as drives me mad at game fairs etc. Thanks michufc, will not let him free run! Edited October 3, 2017 by Pigeonshooter22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Why were you told not to work on heel ? From my limited experience a reliable heel is a must if your ever going to take him beating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeonshooter22 Posted October 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) Why were you told not to work on heel ? From my limited experience a reliable heel is a must if your ever going to take him beating I was told by a few people to leave heel until last, get the rest of the basics done and then work on the heel - as michufc said above I think he was told the same. I totally ignored that and worked on it from day dot. He won't be doing any/much beating at all but its so valuable to have! I often see dogs pulling at game fairs (do a lot of shows with work across the SW) so really didn't want him pulling on a lead as he has to come to quite a few. Edited October 3, 2017 by Pigeonshooter22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Totally agree, my one isn't perfect on a lead but compared to most spaniels.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Why were you told not to work on heel ? From my limited experience a reliable heel is a must if your ever going to take him beating It's an old FT trick/method (possibly many still don't do any heel work) the reason was it was believed to hamper the dogs drive for FT'ing. And to be fair it possibly did back then as in those days many things were taught by breaking a dog or big sticks. So I can see how it might hamper drive In my opinion a decent heel is 1 of the best most important things to train a working dog. Most working dogs are trained to a poor standard but having a dog walk to heel just makes ur day so much easier esp in the beating line. Nothing worse than trying to negotiate a pulling dog on a lead throu thick cover, brairs, whins brash (apart from 2 piulling dogs) esp if loads of birds/scent in front of u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Most working dogs are trained to a poor standard but having a dog walk to heel just makes ur day so much easier esp in the beating line. Nothing worse than trying to negotiate a pulling dog on a lead throu thick cover, brairs, whins brash (apart from 2 piulling dogs) esp if loads of birds/scent in front of u Ain't that the truth 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 like the above comments re heel, however according to the Joe Irving book training spaniels, "Walking to heel is the one of the last things you teach a hunting dog" or "I am not a great believer in teaching a hunting dog to heel and would not consider teaching him to heel prior to teaching him to hunt" just thought I would put that out there do not agree or disagree but can see where pigeonshooter22 got the info I was told by a few people to leave heel until last, get the rest of the basics done and then work on the heel - as michufc said above I think he was told the same. I totally ignored that and worked on it from day dot. He won't be doing any/much beating at all but its so valuable to have! I often see dogs pulling at game fairs (do a lot of shows with work across the SW) so really didn't want him pulling on a lead as he has to come to quite a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 To be fair island gun is right, and I bet there is plenty of spaniel and Hpr trainers who still go by that. I'd imagine many spaniel books and any hpr book tends to say the same And when u go to an FT some dogs are doing a goo job of trying to pull there owners arms off. Joe was 1 of the first of the newer breed/style of trainers Many FT boys don't want anything to get in the way of the dogs hunting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 NO free running!! 😱😱 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeonshooter22 Posted October 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 NO free running!! Do you not allow yours at all? I understand when hes in full training/older but at 4 months he likes having some free time playing with our dog/friends dogs in a local field. I'd feel bad not allowing him to do that once a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Mine has had free running incl running in toa ball from being a pup. I am not very experienced but I believe she knows the difference between free play, training and work. The difference may be because I use the ball for play and reward. Ps When free running she never goes further than twenty yards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 I would bow to BB's experience/knowledge about spaniels. All dogs will be different some dogs u could allow to run amock and they'd still be steady when it mattered while others will become wild. I must admit I do tend to give my pups a lot of 'free running' play time but only with my own dogs so are all under control and to be fair the young pups soon learn to recall and chase the other dogs as they recall back to the whistle. Possibly it depends on the area whee ur letting the play, if u had a more secure area with little scent and no game to chase. If ur pup realises it's more fun to hunt for itself rather than for u, u are setting urself up for some major problems in the future. It's 1 of those problems far easier nipped in bud before it start's rather than trying to stop it. Alaways worth trying to get a lesson or demo from a decent trainer, can make life a lot easier for u. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeonshooter22 Posted October 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Thank you all for the advice, really appreciate it. He never goes far when free running either but will take on all the advice,. Thanks all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Only in the field when they're having a hooley and never allowed to go further away than hunting distance, if you like. I know it's hard to do when they're pets as well though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 I think it must be harder to have a "pet gundog" than an all out gundog. Dual roles 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeonshooter22 Posted October 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 I think it must be harder to have a "pet gundog" than an all out gundog. Dual roles This is the problem, as he is more so a pet it makes it difficult. If he was kenneled it wouldn't be as difficult! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.