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Some Goose telemetry.


lancer425
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NE and NRW use "disturbance" of wildfowl and the "precautionary principle" to regulate/restrict Wildfowlers/Wildfowling....but do nothing about regulating/restricting disturbance from any other source!... they are also quite happy to allow organisations such as WWT and RSPB to "disturb" (frighten the life out of!) vulnerable waterbird species by rocket netting them on their feeding grounds, in order to attach a foreign object/extra weight to individual birds! To show they are doing something scientific!

So it appears NE and NRW have singled out the wildfowler/shooter for special treatment?

 

Bunch of hypocrites!

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As an ex ringer I am sure ringing has very little effect if any , on the birds. I have caught wigeon and greylag, ringed them only to find them back in the trap the next day and for many day over that winter , indeed many have been recaught many times over a winter year after year. I have also had small song birds start feeding within minutes of being ringed and released. If ringing had any serious effect on the birds to change their behaviour then there would be no point in doing it as the data would be false. Ringing is vital in location the migration routes birds use and finding the important stop over sites they need to recover from their long flights. Then those sites can be protected from developement. As long as populations are healthy shooting has a very minor impact on quarry species , but habitat loss from developement is the major problem for the future of our quarry species.

Edited by anser2
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As an ex ringer I am sure ringing has very little effect if any , on the birds. I have caught wigeon and greylag, ringed them only to find them back in the trap the next day and for many day over that winter , indeed many have been recaught many times over a winter year after year. I have also had small song birds start feeding within minutes of being ringed and released. If ringing had any serious effect on the birds to change their behaviour then there would be no point in doing it as the data would be false. Ringing is vital in location the migration routes birds use and finding the important stop over sites they need to recover from their long flights. Then those sites can be protected from developement. As long as populations are healthy shooting has a very minor impact on quarry species , but habitat loss from developement is the major problem for the future of our quarry species.

Whilst I don't have a problem with catching birds and ringing them for scientific purposes, It cannot be denied birds are disturbed by being netted and subsequently handled by humans......compare the deafening noise at first light of several rockets firing off at close proximity to the feeding geese with nets propelled over them, catching them on takeoff and bringing them to ground (with the possibility of harm or damage) the subsequent prolonged time in captivity whilst a ring and gps are fitted and the handling of these birds.....to a wildfowler creeping out in the predawn, hiding himself in a gully, many times not even getting a shot, or sometimes one or two! then when the geese have all left the roost for the feeding grounds, usually some considerable distance away from the estuary, the fowler leaves the marsh with little or no disturbance!

 

How does that compare?

 

A fowler with a gun causes considerably less disturbance on the marsh than a dog walker, a boater, a birdwatcher, a fisherman etc, etc, etc........because he hides himself! The others do not! Why would they?..... even if a fowler got a shot or two, the report is momentary and dissipates instantly.....there is no prolonged "disturbance"

 

The only users of the estuary regulated by NE and NRW, using the "precautionary principle" without any evidence, because of alleged "disturbance" are Wildfowlers........I wonder why this is?

Edited by panoma1
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As an ex ringer I am sure ringing has very little effect if any , on the birds. I have caught wigeon and greylag, ringed them only to find them back in the trap the next day and for many day over that winter , indeed many have been recaught many times over a winter year after year. I have also had small song birds start feeding within minutes of being ringed and released. If ringing had any serious effect on the birds to change their behaviour then there would be no point in doing it as the data would be false. Ringing is vital in location the migration routes birds use and finding the important stop over sites they need to recover from their long flights. Then those sites can be protected from developement. As long as populations are healthy shooting has a very minor impact on quarry species , but habitat loss from developement is the major problem for the future of our quarry species.

Thanks for commenting as someone who has first hand experience if ringing. What's your view on the telementery devices? It seems a bulky and awkward item to me, especially around the neck.

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Thanks for commenting as someone who has first hand experience if ringing. What's your view on the telementery devices? It seems a bulky and awkward item to me, especially around the neck.

I am less happy with radio tracking devices, but as a whole the information we get from them is far more important that the slight problems a bird may ( or may not ) have. Most are made to drop off when the bird moults. As for any stress the bird may experiance having them fitted it must be far less that the stress caused from an ounce and a quarter of BB hitting them.

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I am less happy with radio tracking devices, but as a whole the information we get from them is far more important that the slight problems a bird may ( or may not ) have. Most are made to drop off when the bird moults. As for any stress the bird may experiance having them fitted it must be far less that the stress caused from an ounce and a quarter of BB hitting them.

So as a former NE employee, bird catcher and experienced bird ringer, you don't know whether birds suffer problems "or may not" from catching, handling and fitting gps devices and/or rings to birds?

 

By "suffer" I assume you mean "stress" and "disturbance"? Which I think it's fair to conclude that because it is unnatural for them to be captured, handled and messed about with for an undetermined amount of time by human hands, the answer is, they do!

 

On the other hand, If a well aimed ounce and a quarter of BB hits em they suffer no stress or "disturbance" at all.....they are dead! Pretty well instantly! Isn't that what all Wildfowlers intend to achieve? Whereas if you read my previous posts on this thread can you say the same for the activities of the bird protectionists....that's a rhetorical question...the answer is no!

Edited by panoma1
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Yes I was a bird ringer , but I have never used radio tracking or have any first hand experiance of it (very few ringers have) , but from what I have read about the subject it appears to. have little or no effect. Which I said there may be a slight problem or may not. But one thing for sure if there is a problem it would be stopped at once. The BTO is very strong in halting any form of ringing that harms birds. Thats why it takes years of training to be a ringer and further training before you are allowed to take on any other form of bird marking or unual methods of catching birds. For example you might hold a licence to ring birds , but you will need further training before you will be allowed to ring wader chicks. Any form of ringing is usless for science if the bird does not act naturaly and would be stopped at once if this was proved to be so. To compare to stress caused by shooting is plain daft. Unfortunetly a small percentage of the birds we shoot are wounded and those we miss or are flying beside the bird we kill will all experiance stress. I know I would if the guy next to me was shot. Shoot a flight pond every night for a week and see how many duck come back the next week. Most of the unshot birds will have been badly frightened and show their stress by moving elsewhere. Its probable that several hundred years of shooting has modified the behaviour of ducks in this country. Why else would ducks in America ( no night shooting ) widely feed in daylight while in the UK mainly feed at night except on bird reserves. Clearly shooting has a stressful effect on the birds for them to alter their behaviour. I can think of no example of ringing or radio tracking having a similar effect.

 

Your Quote "Which I think it's fair to conclude that because it is unnatural for them to be captured, handled and messed about with for an undetermined amount of time by human hands, the answer is, they do!"

 

The handling of birds is kept to a minimum when ringing with most ringed and examined within a minute or two, perhaps a few minutes for a radio tracking device to be fitted. And as I have retrapped ducks in the same trap , sometimes within hours and in fact often had to stop trapping to encourage the birds to move elsewhere, I doubt any stress from handling lasts very long and certantly has no lasting effect.

Edited by anser2
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So are you saying wild birds do not feel stress from human handling and being confined and held in captivity? And is not comparing animal feelings as you have, with human feelings called anthropomorphising? It is never any Wildfowlers intention to wound or cause suffering to any bird, and I accept a wounded bird will feel something if wounded, but I have never seen it scientifically proven that birds have emotions or feel things the same way as humans feel! If you are saying they do, you are putting forward the antis case to ban all live shooting! Is that your intention?

Of course a flight pond overshot will cause the duck to go elsewhere but so would they if a couple of people were regularly present when they tried to come in to feed...its not particularly the shooting that deters them, its the presence of man! Going elsewhere is a natural reaction by a wild creature to the presence of a predator.

So what do you suggest we do in order to prevent the possibly of birds experiencing any stress and disturbance? Abandon all human presence in all wild places? Confine all human activity to the towns and cities, so as not to stress and disturb the wildlife?

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I am not suggesting anything of the sort. Panoma it was you that suggested birds feel high stress levels from ringing, but the evidence does not back that up. On the other hand there can be no doubt that shooting does produce stress or they would not fly away when shot at and they would not desert an area when over shot. Its the shooting not the presence of man that frightens off birds from a marsh. I could show you many examples where duck pay very little attention to close human presence , I have had wild pink feet that would allow man to within a few yards when they are in the presence of tame birds in a safe unshot place and take a walk around Titchwell RSPB reserve and you can walk within a few feet of teal and they pay little attention to you. I know of tame park mallard that will take food out of your hands , but those same birds are very wild just a few hundred yards away on a marsh where they are shot. So again its clearly not the presence of man, but the shooting that frightens them and when man stops shooting then the birds tame down and lose their fear of man. Also in a perfect world every shooter would like to cleanly kill every birds he shoots at , but this does not happen in the real world. When a large sample of pink feet were caught for ringing back in the 1970s they were x-rayed and 45% were found to be carrying lead shot some with several different sizes so they had been wounded several times. Having said that the birds were in good condition and were not showing any bad effects , but to say ringing causes excessive amounts of stress compared with shooting is clearly wrong. Perhaps it would be a good idea for you to join your local ringing group for a day and see what really goes on first hand rather than rely on hear say .

Edited by anser2
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Anser2, I did not say birds felt high levels of stress from ringing, because I don't know whether they do or do not! You state "evidence doesn't back up" that it does! Is that scientific evidence or are you just giving opinion? What I said was I believe, rocket netting, restraining them, fitting GPS receivers, ringing and human handling is more likely to cause stress to birds than a hidden wildfowler having an occasional shot at them!....I have no scientific evidence to prove or disprove this but based on the balance of probabilities, it is my opinion that it does!

I am also aware that ducks and geese, in a controlled, protected environment (Slimbridge for example) become temporarily "tame" and conditioned to take food and tolerate human presence.....but you try to approach those same pinks in the open field or on the estuary and you won't get within 200/300 yards of em! Whether you have a gun with you, or not!

Overshooting will certainly cause birds to change their "normal" patterns! Rocket netting, restraining them, fitting GPS receivers, ringing and human handling etc, is highly likely to stress them and disturb their normal patterns, but I believe the occasional report from a gun fired by a concealed lone wildfowler will cause little "disturbance" and have no more than an insignificant, momentary stress effect of them.

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