leeds chimp Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 13 hours ago, grrclark said: For the sake of some balance. The horse rider was seen in the footage to be riding her horse in an aggressive manner against the group of protestors who were standing still. In order to protect himself and the other protestors one of the anti's took hold of the horses rein, effectively attempting a proportionate and reasonable defence from aggressive action by the horse rider. At that point the rider could have opted to hold her horse steady and attempt to reason with the protestor, but instead she repeatedly struck him well beyond what would be considered reasonable and proportionate relative to the level of implied threat. The rider was in close proximity with other riders as well as hunt stewards on foot, the latter who intervened at the end. From the footage I have seen I think the horse woman is a fool who has done herself and her hunt no benefit whatsoever and handed the anti hunting brigade a fantastic piece of video propaganda. Her actions and reactions were foolish and excessive. I deal with the horsey world a lot..... And know the full story They were drag hunting and a young rider got separated from the rest as the horse could not jump /did not jump a ditch... The young person then got surrounded by 14-16 masked people.... Jane... Who is the rider in the video then goes back to get the other rider... Before the filming she trys to get the other rider out.... As seen in the video she then goes towards them and is set upon by the anti...... Please check all facts before giving an view...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yod dropper Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, leeds chimp said: I deal with the horsey world a lot..... And know the full story They were drag hunting and a young rider got separated from the rest as the horse could not jump /did not jump a ditch... The young person then got surrounded by 14-16 masked people.... Jane... Who is the rider in the video then goes back to get the other rider... Before the filming she trys to get the other rider out.... As seen in the video she then goes towards them and is set upon by the anti...... I like this. Edited November 22, 2017 by yod dropper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 18 minutes ago, leeds chimp said: I deal with the horsey world a lot..... And know the full story They were drag hunting and a young rider got separated from the rest as the horse could not jump /did not jump a ditch... The young person then got surrounded by 14-16 masked people.... Jane... Who is the rider in the video then goes back to get the other rider... Before the filming she trys to get the other rider out.... As seen in the video she then goes towards them and is set upon by the anti...... Please check all facts before giving an view...... Great that you have a more complete story, as I pointed out in my very first post then based on the footage I had seen i made comment, exactly the same as everyone else had done. As with anything else it behoves us all to have the full facts available to us, however your personal knowledge of the situation is not available to all because we don;t all have personal connections with the people in question. I hope that the last part of your post that I have highlighted is directed to every commentator on this post too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benthejockey Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 The good news for the sab is that’s a procush or procush lookalike whip like we use for racing. You can pretty much hit someone as hard as you like and it doesn’t really hurt. The trouble with these videos is they’re released by the sabs. So we’ve got the video of them being ridden at and then having a tickle with a stick but what we haven’t got is what was happening prior to that. I got a call last week off my mate who told me to watch the latest video on the West mid sabs group. There he is on a road somewhere in Warwickshire fetching hounds back and a policeman come up and talks to him for a good 5 minutes. Watching the video and seeing what the sabs said I called him back thinking he might be in trouble. Nope. What you don’t see is the sabs abusing him all day or what happens after the video stops. The policeman came over, passed the time of day, asked him if he felt intimidated - which of course he definitely did - and he went across and removed the sabs from the area Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pushkin Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 Grr thanks for the other link you posted. I've spent some time going over it now and it seems to be a piece of footage that's been cobbled together by the sabs organisation itself, then passed to Metro to publish. I say that because I do not see the rider heading towards the sabs until near the end of the clip and she clearly gives warning but also moves around. It is interesting that one of the sabs can be heard stating look out behind. Unless such footage is filmed and recorded by verified and trustful news vendors I cannot give any credence to the guys idiocy in taking her reins. If you are sitting in your car at a junction or road traffic lights and somebody opens your door and gets in and takes over your steering wheel what would you do? "Quite all right squire on you go and just let me off at the shops?" Given all the nonsense and that going on around the rider then I really do think the SAB was taking the opportunity to make capital out of whatever become of his actions. It was uncalled for and totally stupid. However, I would also suggest that he is someone who is knowledgeable of horses and how to wrest control of them from the rider. I feel this was the normal lets set them up stuff by the sabs. Had a laugh at the comment on the clip that follows Grrs "'Throwing rocks at a moving vehicle is the height of stupidity and we formally ask both North Yorkshire Police and the Badsworth and Bramham Moor Hunt what they plan to do about this incident" Does that also apply to grabbing hold of a horses reins? It is a sad life we share these days folks. Pushkin :-) Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5100649/Hunt-saboteurs-rocks-thrown-window.html#ixzz4z9j49Up7 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 5 hours ago, Mice! said: So if someone walked into your house or garden, somewhere they shouldn't be wearing a mask how are you going to react? Pop the kettle on? The likelihood is the hunt followers who are acting lawfully have been getting grief and impeded all day maybe week in week out, she advances telling them or him to do one, he grabs her reins, so she properly let's him have it, she doesn't strike him until he grabs the reins. the sabs are no different to the folk on scooters going round wearing masks robbing people. If they want to peacefully protest then crack on, stand where its safe jeer boo whatever, start grabbing at horses and you get what's coming. I think this is an utterly ludicrous post, how on earth can you conflate the actions of SABS with people on scooters robbing people? There is also a world of difference of someone walking in to my house or garden wearing a mask versus those protesting in an open field. Yes the hunt sabs do try and achieve their aims by intimidation and i have no doubt that quite often their actions stray into being illegal, however none of this comes as a surprise to the hunts. They know that the sabs will try to impede their activities, they know the sabs will be present in fields and they will wear masks and be thoroughly unpleasant people. Regardless of the legal status accorded to trail hunting those who do hunt know that public sympathy is not on their side, it is highly emotive and those who do hunt do have to take the moral high ground in their behaviours and actions and I think that rider manifestly failed to do that. 3 hours ago, Gordon R said: grrclark - your posts have made me look again - which is no bad thing - your posts usually cause me to look at the other side. I can see blame on both sides, but mainly on the sabs. I don't believe that a prosecution will ensue for either party. I trust both will re-consider their actions, however unlikely that is. Gordon, I agree with that. There is fault on both sides, without any doubt the sabs pursue an approach of aggressive intimidation towards the hunts, but i think the rider misjudged that particular situation and escalated the situation beyond what was reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonk Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 1 hour ago, leeds chimp said: I deal with the horsey world a lot..... And know the full story They were drag hunting and a young rider got separated from the rest as the horse could not jump /did not jump a ditch... The young person then got surrounded by 14-16 masked people.... Jane... Who is the rider in the video then goes back to get the other rider... Before the filming she trys to get the other rider out.... As seen in the video she then goes towards them and is set upon by the anti...... Please check all facts before giving an view...... This confirms my opinion that she was right, every story has at least two sides!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 That is the danger with half a tale. That is the third version. 1. Sab at fault, rider frightened and defending herself and her horse. 2. Fault on both sides. Masked sab grabs horse, but rider went towards him first. 3. Rider had good cause to ride towards him and is subsequently intimidated. I am now firmly of the opinion that, legally, this is going nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord v Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 12 minutes ago, Gordon R said: I am now firmly of the opinion that, legally, this is going nowhere. Most likely the case. When people moan about the lack of legal action in these cases may be good to point them to this thread to show how the slightest nuance changes the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 38 minutes ago, Gordon R said: That is the danger with half a tale. That is the third version. 1. Sab at fault, rider frightened and defending herself and her horse. 2. Fault on both sides. Masked sab grabs horse, but rider went towards him first. 3. Rider had good cause to ride towards him and is subsequently intimidated. I am now firmly of the opinion that, legally, this is going nowhere. Indeed, those who leap to judgement on the basis on a limited amount of information, on whatever side they choose to fall make a grievous error, hence my contrary posts for the sake of balance and debate. Equally those who leap to judgement based on bias or conditioned thinking are also making a grievous error, i.e. SABS are bad therefor SABS must be in the wrong and SABS deserve everything they get. Critical thinking must always be critical, even if that means being critical of things you would prefer not to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, grrclark said: Indeed, those who leap to judgement on the basis on a limited amount of information, on whatever side they choose to fall make a grievous error, hence my contrary posts for the sake of balance and debate. Equally those who leap to judgement based on bias or conditioned thinking are also making a grievous error, i.e. SABS are bad therefor SABS must be in the wrong and SABS deserve everything they get. Critical thinking must always be critical, even if that means being critical of things you would prefer not to be. It is you who is on the high horse not the lady the subject of this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, JDog said: It is you who is on the high horse not the lady the subject of this thread. Never suggested she was JDog, what's your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodge911 Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 3 hours ago, leeds chimp said: Jane... Who is the rider in the video then goes back to get the other rider... Before the filming she trys to get the other rider out.... As seen in the video she then goes towards them and is set upon by the anti...... Please check all facts before giving an view...... SPOT ON THAT MAN . all too many times do the press edit footage to suit their preferred side of the story and hardly ever report the story correctly and truthfully ... these numpties who cover up all in black with balaclavas ect so as to make it harder for the offender to correctly identified deserve all they get Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 16 minutes ago, grrclark said: Indeed, those who leap to judgement on the basis on a limited amount of information, on whatever side they choose to fall make a grievous error, hence my contrary posts for the sake of balance and debate. Equally those who leap to judgement based on bias or conditioned thinking are also making a grievous error, i.e. SABS are bad therefor SABS must be in the wrong and SABS deserve everything they get. Critical thinking must always be critical, even if that means being critical of things you would prefer not to be. For the sake of balance, the evidence is a video made and edited by the sabs, to make them look good, and the hunt look bad, as is every sab video. You can see that nearly everyone of them had cameras of some type, so they are not struggling for angles ! The fact that even then, people on here blame the sabs. The analogy of people lurking in the garden aside, when going about your lawful business, you are confronted by a large group of masked people who are not going about lawful business, you may not act in the manner you normally would, fight or flight ? The lady in question might not have acted in an aggressive manner, if not perceiving aggression toward herself, her horse or friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 13 minutes ago, Rewulf said: For the sake of balance, the evidence is a video made and edited by the sabs, to make them look good, and the hunt look bad, as is every sab video. You can see that nearly everyone of them had cameras of some type, so they are not struggling for angles ! The fact that even then, people on here blame the sabs. The analogy of people lurking in the garden aside, when going about your lawful business, you are confronted by a large group of masked people who are not going about lawful business, you may not act in the manner you normally would, fight or flight ? The lady in question might not have acted in an aggressive manner, if not perceiving aggression toward herself, her horse or friend. It is a fair point, there is no doubt that a group of people who dress and behave in a manner that is intimidating are obviously setting out to influence a certain outcome. Let's say you were walking to the shops and there is a group of masked people congregating on your route, yep that would give genuine cause for fear and alarm, so you have some choices. You can take an alternate route to avoid them, you can brazen it out and walk past, you can become aggressive or of course you ask the police to intervene. If you become the aggressor then you are provoking the reaction, you are raising the issue to a point of conflict and that conflict is not essential. If you brazen it out and they start on you then you are of course entitled to defend yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, grrclark said: It is a fair point, there is no doubt that a group of people who dress and behave in a manner that is intimidating are obviously setting out to influence a certain outcome. Let's say you were walking to the shops and there is a group of masked people congregating on your route, yep that would give genuine cause for fear and alarm, so you have some choices. You can take an alternate route to avoid them, you can brazen it out and walk past, you can become aggressive or of course you ask the police to intervene. If you become the aggressor then you are provoking the reaction, you are raising the issue to a point of conflict and that conflict is not essential. If you brazen it out and they start on you then you are of course entitled to defend yourself. Absolutely, but throw into the mix that your friend or relative is already in proximity to the group of masked people, and your choices are further limited. Likewise ,why are they wearing masks if they have no ill intent, halloween parties aside. I have ridden horses before, Im not great, but is it possible to ride into a group of people without seeming aggressive ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 Pretty sure horses have a small say in the direction they walk .especially when surrounded by aggressive people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 15 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Absolutely, but throw into the mix that your friend or relative is already in proximity to the group of masked people, and your choices are further limited. Likewise ,why are they wearing masks if they have no ill intent, halloween parties aside. I have ridden horses before, Im not great, but is it possible to ride into a group of people without seeming aggressive ? If you are also part of an equal sized group then the intimidation becomes lessened. I'm not defending the SABS, i think in the main they're a rent a mob group of trouble makers, so can't give an authoritative answer on why they wear masks, but I would say simply bacause they want to appear intimidating and it is obviously effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 the behaviour from both sides was an absolute disgrace ! . i watched the short clip last night and i thought that the sab got everything he deserved , but , ive just watched the longer version and completely changed my mind , the woman on horseback clearly uses her horse in a forceful manner , and then attacks the sab with her whip. i wouldnt be surprised if she ended up in court , and it would be richly deserved. ive despised sabs for many years , and have myself been in a "dust up" with several of them , but , being angry about something that a sab had done earlier , doesnt give her any legal right to attack him. ive always been a supporter of all fieldsports , but the behaviour of that rider has done hunting no favours whatsoever . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 (edited) Any prosecution would rely heavily on video footage, as I don't think either side would stand scrutiny in a witness box. Any edit of that video renders it almost worthless. There is no continuity statement worth a bean. If the rider was prosecuted, one of the defence brief's first question would be to ask the sab why he wore a mask. Whatever he replied would make him an unreliable witness. He cannot give any answer which would make him credible. He wore it to either intimidate or avoid future identification. If he wore it to intimidate, successful prosecution would be unlikely. If he wore it to avoid identification, it suggests he knew there might be trouble in advance. I will be stunned if it goes to court - for either the rider or the sab. Edited November 22, 2017 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 So which one of the two combatants got up in the morning and said to themselves that they were going to cause disruption and chaos? 2 hours ago, grrclark said: Never suggested she was JDog, what's your point? My point is that I cannot see why you are trying your best to defend the actions of a Hunt Saboteur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 1 minute ago, JDog said: So which one of the two combatants got up in the morning and said to themselves that they were going to cause disruption and chaos? +1 there JDog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 27 minutes ago, Gordon R said: Any prosecution would rely heavily on video footage, as I don't think either side would stand scrutiny in a witness box. Any edit of that video renders it almost worthless. There is no continuity statement worth a bean. If the rider was prosecuted, one of the defence brief's first question would be to ask the sab why he wore a mask. Whatever he replied would make him an unreliable witness. He cannot give any answer which would make him credible. He wore it to either intimidate or avoid future identification. If he wore it to intimidate, successful prosecution would be unlikely. If he wore it to avoid identification, it suggests he knew there might be trouble in advance. I will be stunned if it goes to court - for either the rider or the sab. youre probably right . im guessing that the cps wouldnt want to get involved in the whole mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry2016 Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 She should have used a priest and not a horse whip .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 49 minutes ago, JDog said: My point is that I cannot see why you are trying your best to defend the actions of a Hunt Saboteur. I'm not doing that JD, I am suggesting that the actions of the rider were excessive and misjudged. There is a significant difference between criticising the riders actions and defending the actions of the sab'. In my opening post I took a polarised stance by way of example of how the sab' may describe events contrary to the collective baying of the contributors to this thread. For the avoidance of any doubt, I am not defending the sab', but neither do I believe the actions of the rider in this particular case are reasonable. Based on the footage seen. I think that she has left herself, and by direct association her hunt, open to a level of criticism that was unnecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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