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DanBettin

How do you cater for a long distance shot with rib in sight?

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    30 minutes ago, welshwarrior said:

    Well said

     

    As to some of the post in gunfit I chuckled but one thing is true if you don't have a consistent mount and come and see me I'll send you away even if Boss are paying me. 

    exactly, the thing that new shooters need to accept is that it takes few years to get settled in a style and to get a consistent mount. It is my opinion that consistent gun mount is above all things were good shooting is concerned.

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    Throw the bore sighter in a drawer and get on a pattern plate. Adjust the gun till it shoots where you look 

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    I like analysing things too. I'm also an engineer. It's all very well to tell people to find a coach, but like car mechanic and doctors, most of them are bad at their job, so self-awareness is still a valid way of finding one's way into improving.

    The 'where the gun is pointing' when mounted is a valid problem to look at, my first gun was a trap gun, and was shooting 'high' as described: I 'saw' a lot of rib, and my mental picture on where to put the clay meant I had quite a bit of 'air' between the tip of the gun and where the clay was. Not that you 'notice' but you still 'know' it ... I shot that pretty well for quite a while.

    With my current gun, I'm very flat on the rib when mounted 'naturally', so on a 'stationary' target I'll have the clay 'under' the bead. If I try to give it more 'air' I'll shoot under. I discovered that when I lost weight a few months ago, my face gradually went 'down' on the gun, and I started to miss completely unmissable birds, because my mount had changed slightly... Wasted quite a bit of time/carts until someone pointed to me that I was perfectly in line with the bird, just under. Epiphany moment ensued. Gun mount *changes* -- make sure to take that into account when you spend your ££££ getting a gun fitting ;-)

    And when I shoot the SxS, it's even wierder, as I need to actually *cover* the bird with the barrels, otherwise I'll shoot under, by a lot. Once I dial that in, I can shoot it almost as good as my clay gun, but the 'mental' picture on where I'll eventually point the gun has to change significantly.

    Pattern plates 'help' but it's difficult, as I mount 'carefully' on a plate, it doesn't feel natural. I prefer shooting a pond, or a bank (a bank with lots of clay fragments is perfect!) where you can see the pattern cloud. Find a safe place, picture a place on the bank/pond where you want to shoot, mount+shoot in one movement and see where your pattern landed.

    You can then go the expensive way and have the gun restocked of course, or you can just 'dial that in' for that particular gun and go on and have fun...

    That's my opinion anyway, I promise *I* don't have lessons or gun fits to sell :-)

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    Well 😊

     

    good job job no ones mentioned weather the target is rising falling or going out at a angle 

    you could just be reading it wrong and shooting where you think it’s going not where it actually is going 

     

    practice is all all you need 

    all the best 

    of 

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    2 hours ago, buze said:

    I like analysing things too. I'm also an engineer. It's all very well to tell people to find a coach, but like car mechanic and doctors, most of them are bad at their job, so self-awareness is still a valid way of finding one's way into improving.

    The 'where the gun is pointing' when mounted is a valid problem to look at, my first gun was a trap gun, and was shooting 'high' as described: I 'saw' a lot of rib, and my mental picture on where to put the clay meant I had quite a bit of 'air' between the tip of the gun and where the clay was. Not that you 'notice' but you still 'know' it ... I shot that pretty well for quite a while.

    With my current gun, I'm very flat on the rib when mounted 'naturally', so on a 'stationary' target I'll have the clay 'under' the bead. If I try to give it more 'air' I'll shoot under. I discovered that when I lost weight a few months ago, my face gradually went 'down' on the gun, and I started to miss completely unmissable birds, because my mount had changed slightly... Wasted quite a bit of time/carts until someone pointed to me that I was perfectly in line with the bird, just under. Epiphany moment ensued. Gun mount *changes* -- make sure to take that into account when you spend your ££££ getting a gun fitting ;-)

    And when I shoot the SxS, it's even wierder, as I need to actually *cover* the bird with the barrels, otherwise I'll shoot under, by a lot. Once I dial that in, I can shoot it almost as good as my clay gun, but the 'mental' picture on where I'll eventually point the gun has to change significantly.

    Pattern plates 'help' but it's difficult, as I mount 'carefully' on a plate, it doesn't feel natural. I prefer shooting a pond, or a bank (a bank with lots of clay fragments is perfect!) where you can see the pattern cloud. Find a safe place, picture a place on the bank/pond where you want to shoot, mount+shoot in one movement and see where your pattern landed.

    You can then go the expensive way and have the gun restocked of course, or you can just 'dial that in' for that particular gun and go on and have fun...

    That's my opinion anyway, I promise *I* don't have lessons or gun fits to sell :-)

    Sounds like you have a few guns that don't fit you well but adapt and make do (different thing).  Patterns only work if used correctly.   

    As to missing underneath a good coach would have been watching the shot and pointed that out before you used to many cartridges! 

    But we're all individuals and some people don't like or take coaching well!

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    2 hours ago, buze said:

    I like analysing things too. I'm also an engineer. It's all very well to tell people to find a coach, but like car mechanic and doctors, most of them are bad at their job, so self-awareness is still a valid way of finding one's way into improving.

    The 'where the gun is pointing' when mounted is a valid problem to look at, my first gun was a trap gun, and was shooting 'high' as described: I 'saw' a lot of rib, and my mental picture on where to put the clay meant I had quite a bit of 'air' between the tip of the gun and where the clay was. Not that you 'notice' but you still 'know' it ... I shot that pretty well for quite a while.

    With my current gun, I'm very flat on the rib when mounted 'naturally', so on a 'stationary' target I'll have the clay 'under' the bead. If I try to give it more 'air' I'll shoot under. I discovered that when I lost weight a few months ago, my face gradually went 'down' on the gun, and I started to miss completely unmissable birds, because my mount had changed slightly... Wasted quite a bit of time/carts until someone pointed to me that I was perfectly in line with the bird, just under. Epiphany moment ensued. Gun mount *changes* -- make sure to take that into account when you spend your ££££ getting a gun fitting ;-)

    And when I shoot the SxS, it's even wierder, as I need to actually *cover* the bird with the barrels, otherwise I'll shoot under, by a lot. Once I dial that in, I can shoot it almost as good as my clay gun, but the 'mental' picture on where I'll eventually point the gun has to change significantly.

    Pattern plates 'help' but it's difficult, as I mount 'carefully' on a plate, it doesn't feel natural. I prefer shooting a pond, or a bank (a bank with lots of clay fragments is perfect!) where you can see the pattern cloud. Find a safe place, picture a place on the bank/pond where you want to shoot, mount+shoot in one movement and see where your pattern landed.

    You can then go the expensive way and have the gun restocked of course, or you can just 'dial that in' for that particular gun and go on and have fun...

    That's my opinion anyway, I promise *I* don't have lessons or gun fits to sell :-)

    But of a sweeping generalisation there methinks; ‘most’ GP’s, shooting coaches and mechanics are bad at their job! Do you know most of them? I’m assuming the same can’t be said for engineers. 

    Anyhow, if you’re getting a different sight picture with each of your different guns, it’s because ( as has been said ) none of them fit you, and I could add, your mount is all over the place.

    Having to ‘dial in’ where your shot pattern prints is unnecessary if your gun fits and your mount is consistent. 

     

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    It's called the bell curve Scully, so yes, for any given activity, you get a small group that are actually dangerously bad, a whole bunch that are rather mediocre, and a small group that are actually quite good at what they do. Even engineers, well done.

    And yes, I've got some guns that don't fit me 100% perfectly well, which is the case for most guns, for most people who haven't decided to have them fitted 'properly' to them for that month. Do I want to give my 1890 SxS gun to a "bell curve" gunsmith to butcher, or should I keep it that way and just adapt?

    So my mount CAN be consistent, but the gun won't "point" the same way when it appear on the shoulder like the others. Therefore, you adapt to it.

    In an ideal worlds, if circumstances didn't change,

    + if you didn't grow/thin,

    + if you didn't wear 2 jumpers instead of one,

    + if you didn't wear THAT coat instead of that one,

    + if you didn't have a week old beard instead of being clean shaved

    + If you didn't wear gloves instead of the one you usualy use.

    Then, THEN your 'gun fitting' would be awesome and ALL your gun that you had fitted would fit damn perfectly well, and your coach (that you have with you all the time, obviously) would be delighted.

    So, in the REAL world, you need to adapt to circumstances, and therefore, learning to adapt to a slightly different gun/fit is probably a good skill to have, as well as *questioning* that sort of things, unless you can call you coach to sort you out next time, in the field. As well as your gunsmith of course.

    Evidently (before you nitpick that part of the argument needlessly) the gun needs to fit you *somehow*, but I found that there is some margin. I can shoot my wife's guns pretty happily for example, just need to compensate the fact they are short by putting my hand way forward on the foreend for example, so the gun is 'pulled' in my shoulder as I mount. *definitely* not something I'd do a great score with, but heck, I can shoot them.

    I'm not actually saying coaching is bad, but you can waste as much time and cartridge (and money) with them, as without them. I know, I've seen some. Being a 'good shot' doesn't make you a good coach. My wife is still recovering from bad coaching from 6+ months ago. I think it's even worse for ladies BTW, *everyone* seems to "know" what's best, while actually it turns out that, well, they don't have a frigging clue and most are working on a mix of hearsay, guesswork and the odd whacky theory, but you know, delivered with a nice authoritative tone that looks pretty cool.

     

     

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    Why people insist on over complicating things I just don’t know. 

    I think I’ve only been coached once with a shotgun, and that was on a DTL stand and lasted about 5 minutes. I don’t shoot DTL.

    If you’re not getting the sight picture you prefer ( no matter how many clothes you’ve got on ) and practice won’t improve it, then the chances are the gunisn’t for you. 

    Ive never had a gun fitted in my life, and since I’ve learned how to mount a gun consistently, to get the picture I want, I don’t buy Berettas anymore, because no matter how much I persist, they don’t fit me. 

    Just practise your mount with each of your guns until you get the sight picture you want. I get the same picture with all my guns, whether it’s a pump, auto, sxs or ou. It’s not rocket science.

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    12 hours ago, buze said:

    It's called the bell curve Scully, so yes, for any given activity, you get a small group that are actually dangerously bad, a whole bunch that are rather mediocre, and a small group that are actually quite good at what they do. Even engineers, well done.

    And yes, I've got some guns that don't fit me 100% perfectly well, which is the case for most guns, for most people who haven't decided to have them fitted 'properly' to them for that month. Do I want to give my 1890 SxS gun to a "bell curve" gunsmith to butcher, or should I keep it that way and just adapt?

    So my mount CAN be consistent, but the gun won't "point" the same way when it appear on the shoulder like the others. Therefore, you adapt to it.

    In an ideal worlds, if circumstances didn't change,

    + if you didn't grow/thin,

    + if you didn't wear 2 jumpers instead of one,

    + if you didn't wear THAT coat instead of that one,

    + if you didn't have a week old beard instead of being clean shaved

    + If you didn't wear gloves instead of the one you usualy use.

    Then, THEN your 'gun fitting' would be awesome and ALL your gun that you had fitted would fit damn perfectly well, and your coach (that you have with you all the time, obviously) would be delighted.

    So, in the REAL world, you need to adapt to circumstances, and therefore, learning to adapt to a slightly different gun/fit is probably a good skill to have, as well as *questioning* that sort of things, unless you can call you coach to sort you out next time, in the field. As well as your gunsmith of course.

    Evidently (before you nitpick that part of the argument needlessly) the gun needs to fit you *somehow*, but I found that there is some margin. I can shoot my wife's guns pretty happily for example, just need to compensate the fact they are short by putting my hand way forward on the foreend for example, so the gun is 'pulled' in my shoulder as I mount. *definitely* not something I'd do a great score with, but heck, I can shoot them.

    I'm not actually saying coaching is bad, but you can waste as much time and cartridge (and money) with them, as without them. I know, I've seen some. Being a 'good shot' doesn't make you a good coach. My wife is still recovering from bad coaching from 6+ months ago. I think it's even worse for ladies BTW, *everyone* seems to "know" what's best, while actually it turns out that, well, they don't have a frigging clue and most are working on a mix of hearsay, guesswork and the odd whacky theory, but you know, delivered with a nice authoritative tone that looks pretty cool.

     

     

    Can’t tell if your being sarcastic or over analytical when taking about beards and jumpers etc.

    How long have you been shooting?

     

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    16 hours ago, buze said:

    I like analysing things too. I'm also an engineer. It's all very well to tell people to find a coach, but like car mechanic and doctors, most of them are bad at their job, so self-awareness is still a valid way of finding one's way into improving.

    The 'where the gun is pointing' when mounted is a valid problem to look at, my first gun was a trap gun, and was shooting 'high' as described: I 'saw' a lot of rib, and my mental picture on where to put the clay meant I had quite a bit of 'air' between the tip of the gun and where the clay was. Not that you 'notice' but you still 'know' it ... I shot that pretty well for quite a while.

    With my current gun, I'm very flat on the rib when mounted 'naturally', so on a 'stationary' target I'll have the clay 'under' the bead. If I try to give it more 'air' I'll shoot under. I discovered that when I lost weight a few months ago, my face gradually went 'down' on the gun, and I started to miss completely unmissable birds, because my mount had changed slightly... Wasted quite a bit of time/carts until someone pointed to me that I was perfectly in line with the bird, just under. Epiphany moment ensued. Gun mount *changes* -- make sure to take that into account when you spend your ££££ getting a gun fitting ;-)

    And when I shoot the SxS, it's even wierder, as I need to actually *cover* the bird with the barrels, otherwise I'll shoot under, by a lot. Once I dial that in, I can shoot it almost as good as my clay gun, but the 'mental' picture on where I'll eventually point the gun has to change significantly.

    Pattern plates 'help' but it's difficult, as I mount 'carefully' on a plate, it doesn't feel natural. I prefer shooting a pond, or a bank (a bank with lots of clay fragments is perfect!) where you can see the pattern cloud. Find a safe place, picture a place on the bank/pond where you want to shoot, mount+shoot in one movement and see where your pattern landed.

    You can then go the expensive way and have the gun restocked of course, or you can just 'dial that in' for that particular gun and go on and have fun...

    That's my opinion anyway, I promise *I* don't have lessons or gun fits to sell :-)

    It has been deemed that the term 'engineer' can be defined as 'someone who works in or is associated with the engineering industry in one form or another. In other words, the term can be meaningless. As a one time meagre technician who is simply interested, would you care to detail your qualifications that warrant that title?

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    Hmm... err, why? Who are you? Where do you come from? Why would I actually have to justify myself to you, exactly? And what does it have to do with the argument at hand anyway?

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    2 hours ago, Scully said:

    Why people insist on over complicating things I just don’t know. 

    I think I’ve only been coached once with a shotgun, and that was on a DTL stand and lasted about 5 minutes. I don’t shoot DTL.

    If you’re not getting the sight picture you prefer ( no matter how many clothes you’ve got on ) and practice won’t improve it, then the chances are the gunisn’t for you. 

    Ive never had a gun fitted in my life, and since I’ve learned how to mount a gun consistently, to get the picture I want, I don’t buy Berettas anymore, because no matter how much I persist, they don’t fit me. 

    Just practise your mount with each of your guns until you get the sight picture you want. I get the same picture with all my guns, whether it’s a pump, auto, sxs or ou. It’s not rocket science.

    I was letting this thread die, since I got the impression people were getting sick of the angle my question was coming from, but since it's been revived, I'll explain why I, and maybe others, tend to think in depth about things like this (whether that's 'over' thinking is subjective).

    I think shooting's great for me personally because (as you can see from the lesson I've learnt in this thread), it teaches you to stop thinking so much - and it's in my nature to think about intricate details, which is why I'm good at my job. The only thinking you need to do all happens before you even step up to the stand (hold point, general flight path of the bird etc.). After that, you're supposed to intentionally fallback on what you already have the instinct to do, subconsciously almost.

    Great, the ideal approach, but if you're not hitting the clays - saying "stop over-thinking" to somebody used to working things through doesn't work. Especially when there are most definitely variables that affect shooting success, that's a fact - tricky to ignore that when you're missing. Why wouldn't I want to get a grip of those variables to improve my game? "Just practice" - ok, will do, practice what exactly though? "Sight picture you prefer" - well surely 'optimal' is a wiser choice than 'preferred'? "Dialling it in is unnecessary" - well, if I'm choosing a sight picture on preference, then I'll need to compensate (dial it in) obviously.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, on the contrary I'd bet you're a far far better shot than me, and in fact I've conceded - I've stopped picking apart my approach in this way (and don't have much more enthusiasm left for discussing in this thread). I'm just givin you an insight into how it's hard not to be analytical for people who are usually very analytical. Everyone's different.

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    7 minutes ago, buze said:

    Hmm... err, why? Who are you? Where do you come from? Why would I actually have to justify myself to you, exactly? And what does it have to do with the argument at hand anyway?

    You most certainly don't. I would not be at all surprised to find out that you are a particularly well qualified C Eng. Perhaps with a little youthful arrogance borne of rightly taking pride in your achievement. I was simply interested as what you said tends to go against the grain in my experience - which after all, that is all I have to rely on. Most people who have worked and studied hard coupled with their own natural intelligence and have achieved a given qualification more often than not recognise that similar was necessary for others in different fields to achieve a similar status and therefore treat them with their due respect. It's just that this doesn't appear to apply to your goodself.

    Yep, OK an untrained and unskilled mechanic can be a costly proposition for any car owner. Once you find one without the 'uns', best hang on to him.

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    1 hour ago, DanBettin said:

    I was letting this thread die, since I got the impression people were getting sick of the angle my question was coming from, but since it's been revived, I'll explain why I, and maybe others, tend to think in depth about things like this (whether that's 'over' thinking is subjective).

    I think shooting's great for me personally because (as you can see from the lesson I've learnt in this thread), it teaches you to stop thinking so much - and it's in my nature to think about intricate details, which is why I'm good at my job. The only thinking you need to do all happens before you even step up to the stand (hold point, general flight path of the bird etc.). After that, you're supposed to intentionally fallback on what you already have the instinct to do, subconsciously almost.

    Great, the ideal approach, but if you're not hitting the clays - saying "stop over-thinking" to somebody used to working things through doesn't work. Especially when there are most definitely variables that affect shooting success, that's a fact - tricky to ignore that when you're missing. Why wouldn't I want to get a grip of those variables to improve my game? "Just practice" - ok, will do, practice what exactly though? "Sight picture you prefer" - well surely 'optimal' is a wiser choice than 'preferred'? "Dialling it in is unnecessary" - well, if I'm choosing a sight picture on preference, then I'll need to compensate (dial it in) obviously.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, on the contrary I'd bet you're a far far better shot than me, and in fact I've conceded - I've stopped picking apart my approach in this way (and don't have much more enthusiasm left for discussing in this thread). I'm just givin you an insight into how it's hard not to be analytical for people who are usually very analytical. Everyone's different.

    Practice your mount; that’s what you should be practising. But you need to practise GOOD TECHNIQUE. That is the most important element of learning how to hit a target...your mount. I could go into great detail and at length, but I can’t be bothered. If you don’t want to get a coach, and if you like the analytical approach ( as you obviously do ) then buy a book called Positive Shooting by ‘he who shall not be named’ and teach yourself. It is a very good book and covers everything you need to know about mounting a gun the correct way. 

    I’m out. 

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    Well buze 

    having read a lot of this you realistically need to try something different 

    this is a guess as it’s hard to help people when you can’t see what there doing 

    however a common thing with long birds is people try to track them and run out of room to swing 

    so I suggest that you move your feet a bit into the direction the birds traveling wind your body back and keeping the momentum going shooting at a comfortable point ie when the birds square to your position this should avoid pushing the gun off your face and then shooting low 

    just my take on it 

    all the best 

    of 

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    1 hour ago, DanBettin said:

    I was letting this thread die, since I got the impression people were getting sick of the angle my question was coming from, but since it's been revived, I'll explain why I, and maybe others, tend to think in depth about things like this (whether that's 'over' thinking is subjective).

    I think shooting's great for me personally because (as you can see from the lesson I've learnt in this thread), it teaches you to stop thinking so much - and it's in my nature to think about intricate details, which is why I'm good at my job. The only thinking you need to do all happens before you even step up to the stand (hold point, general flight path of the bird etc.). After that, you're supposed to intentionally fallback on what you already have the instinct to do, subconsciously almost.

    Great, the ideal approach, but if you're not hitting the clays - saying "stop over-thinking" to somebody used to working things through doesn't work. Especially when there are most definitely variables that affect shooting success, that's a fact - tricky to ignore that when you're missing. Why wouldn't I want to get a grip of those variables to improve my game? "Just practice" - ok, will do, practice what exactly though? "Sight picture you prefer" - well surely 'optimal' is a wiser choice than 'preferred'? "Dialling it in is unnecessary" - well, if I'm choosing a sight picture on preference, then I'll need to compensate (dial it in) obviously.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, on the contrary I'd bet you're a far far better shot than me, and in fact I've conceded - I've stopped picking apart my approach in this way (and don't have much more enthusiasm left for discussing in this thread). I'm just givin you an insight into how it's hard not to be analytical for people who are usually very analytical. Everyone's different.

    People are often accused of overthinking but that doesn't mean under thinking is the right answer either so asking and questioning is always important in my mind. However, on sight picture there are some definite don't (blocking the eye behind the action) but on the subject of do’s (within reason) it is personal choice. To back this up I personally know 2 shooters that have won major titles one chooses a flat hardly any rib sight picture, the other chooses to see a lot of rib, as to which is right is genuinely personal preference as they have both won titles.

    You could take a poll to see which is the most preferred set up and you would probably come up with the place a pound coin on the end of the rib and just see the bead on top of it as the most common picture. However, that is probably to do with it being said that often that people just blindly follow it when they first start.

    As a purely anecdotal statement based on nothing more than chats with shooters whose opinion I respect and my own preference I have found that people who have slight eye issues such as weak or switching eye dominance or weaker vision in one eye etc.  tend to prefer to see more rib as it does seem to help with that. Those with a nice strong master eye tend to prefer to see very little rib. But as I have said it is only anecdotal and I don’t have any scientific evidence to back this up.

    Seeing as no one can see it through your eyes it does become personal preference, or if I was helping someone to shoot and they were lifting their head on certain targets I would suggest try seeing a little more rib to help but other than that it is personal.

    Regarding lead and where the clay should be there are so many variables no one can give you an answer over the internet. If you shoot slow and methodical with maintained lead then you will see more lead on distant targets than someone with a quick swing through pull away style of shooting.

    This also effects the perception of clay above the gun if the target is dropping (which it will be due to gravity unless it’s a teal like target) using either pull away or swing through means you have to insert the gun under the clay to factor in any drop. How much the clay is dropping to where the break point is cannot be explained from afar. 

    Also, some people see lead, some feel lead (speed of swing), some also see lead at the barrel and some see it as an extrapolation of the barrel near the clay.

    I am from a scientific background so like you I like to know answers as well, there are answers out there for you but people need to see what you are doing to see what the answers are due to the many variables involved with shooting styles.

    Edited by timps

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    1 hour ago, Scully said:

    Practice your mount; that’s what you should be practising. But you need to practise GOOD TECHNIQUE. That is the most important element of learning how to hit a target...your mount. I could go into great detail and at length, but I can’t be bothered. If you don’t want to get a coach, and if you like the analytical approach ( as you obviously do ) then buy a book called Positive Shooting by ‘he who shall not be named’ and teach yourself. It is a very good book and covers everything you need to know about mounting a gun the correct way. 

    I’m out. 

    Entirely missed the point of my post. No worries though - I can't really be bothered continuing this, it's gone on a bit now - to reiterate, was just giving a bit of insight into why people over-think this, which is what you said you were confused about. Appreciate the replies nonetheless, all helpful for someone like me relatively new to the sport.

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    your 1st post content is correct, but it does not need worrying about, a shotgun will generally put a 60/40 pattern on target ie 60% is above and 40% below, i have always just picked up any old gun as I have a few, none of which fit perfectly apart from my 325, but I make do with the rest and use them for the joy of having them, I have always aimed down the rib so have adjusted to various comb and length measurements, a shotgun is not a rifle so does not need pin point accuracy although you will be surprised what you can miss by aiming an inch to the left it really is quite bizarre , just enjoy using them i do:good:

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    49 minutes ago, DanBettin said:

    Entirely missed the point of my post. No worries though - I can't really be bothered continuing this, it's gone on a bit now - to reiterate, was just giving a bit of insight into why people over-think this, which is what you said you were confused about. Appreciate the replies nonetheless, all helpful for someone like me relatively new to the sport.

    You asked what you should practise ‘exactly ‘. I answered your question; practise your mount.

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    18 minutes ago, Scully said:

    You asked what you should practise ‘exactly ‘. I answered your question; practise your mount.

    No mate, read the rest of the post "was just giving a bit of insight into why people over-think this". I was saying that these may be some of the specifics that those who analyse it might ask themselves. I've also said a few times now that I concede, that I was just giving an insight and that I've stopped over-thinking it. The only reason I've explained this is because according to you you're failing to understand why people "try shortcuts" or "over think" things ("Why people insist on over complicating things I just don’t know").

    Getting a bit daft this thread now.

    Edited by DanBettin

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    I was responding to the post of Buze, until you dropped back into the thread, but the advice applies equally to you both. 

    If your mount isn’t right then analysing the rest is irrelevant. 

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